Lowering an already low bar

[Brett Hull]

Just wanted to start a new thread to hopefully move the side discussion on the "denying a Mesa Jumpseater" thread to this one.

Everyone already knows of the animosity facing the Mesa guys for the contract they signed, displeasure toward the Freedom pilots, and the raging hatred for Jonathan Ornstein throughout the aviation industry.

I also keep seeing people keep throwing around the phrase "lowering the bar". Here's my question: Just who's ultimately responsible for lowering this bar? Mesa pilots? Freedom pilots, Management? All of them?

A lot of the time, the person using the "lowering the bar" phrase is someone who hasn't been employed at his airline for a significant amount of time. These people are complaining about how the other pilot's actions are going to come back to eventually hurt them with regards to pay, work rules, etc.. And herein lies the problem.

The problem: These same people who are doing the complaining are the same ones who, within the last one to three years, went to work for an airline who pays their pilots increadibly $hitty wages. And it isn't just them. It's everyone with CRJ, ERJ, FRJ, AVRO, SF340, J3101, J4101, etc., etc. in your profile. You just wanted to fly, Just like secks says he does.

Borrowed from another thread:

Starting salaries for Mesaba pilots, who operate both jet and turboprop airliners, is less than $17,000 per year. After three years that salary is only $24,000.

We like to tell people that we're just as highly trained as Doctors and Lawyers, yet we accept this for compensation. Why? And who's fault is it? It's not JO's, It's not the CEO of (insert your airline here). It's every one of you. Every time you take a job for measly pay, you say to Mgmt "Walk all over me! I just want to fly." Why should JO, or any other executive for that matter, offer you any better when you already told him you weren't worth any more than 17K - 19K/year, or 24K/year in year three?

One of you guys are going to say: "There's just someone at one of the pilot factories who will come in and take my job if we try to fix the problem." Guess what. That someone was you just a couple of years ago. Everyone needs to stop blaming Mesa and JO for all of the problems and take a long look in the mirror.

I know everyone viewed the regionals as a stepping stone to the Major job. Guess what? No one's moving. Times have changed and you have no one to blame for this mess but yourselves.

This isn't meant to start a flame war, and I apologize if I sound like I'm a d!ck. I'm sure after most of you read this you're going to want to kick me squa in da nuts. But please don't let your BP raise too much, especially if you're renewing your medical tomorrow. Take a deep breath, put your thoughts together (hopefully better than I did mine) and tell me where I missed the boat.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Lowering the bar is...

flying RJ's where 737's used to be AND NOT GIVING IT A SECOND THOUGHT. I am no expert on the motives of someone who doesn't mind saddling up a CRJ to fly IAD to wherever and then turn around and rag some else for "lowering the bar." But, Mainline managers have pushed to capacity to lower cost (read wage) sources and not one crew member who is flying a former mainline route refused to fly it on the the "lowering the bar" theory they now so readily beat others over the head with. A bit of a double standard eh?

 

[acaTerry]

not one crew member who is flying a former mainline route refused to fly it on the the "lowering the bar" theory they now so readily beat others over the head with. A bit of a double standard eh?

Got news for you buddy. As a furloughed UAL pilot acquaintance/friend put it: "we should have never refused to fly those RJ's". So somebody DID refuse to fly the RJ.
Now I really can't argue that the RJ has been instrumental in the demise of a lot of mainline flying, that's a fact, but there is another fact to consider: Until Sept 11th, the industry was exploding. The RJ was not really a problem, it was a great feed tool. Then 9/11 happened and the debate will live on forever: is the RJ what is keeping mainlines alive (B737 with 25 people vs. CRJ with 25 people?) or is it what's keeping the mainlines down (as it is no longer a feed, but a regular route flyer)?

Hey man, me fly J41. No fly CRJ, no get yelled at.....

 

[VFR on Top]

Hey Brett, what's your point? Got a pragmatic solution to offer or are you content to just b!tch about it?

 

[OldManPilot]

Excellent posts from everyone.

I would like to add to Brett's comments. I agree with everything that he said. We as pilots should value our services, education, training etc., more that we have the tendancey to do, but I think one of the main reasons this gets ignored is passion. Almost every pilot I know, that flies for a living, is passionate about what they do. Many pilots eat, sleep, and drink airplanes. On our days off , we build airplanes, we read about airplanes we fly for fun, we even go to museus just to look at airplanes. We become so ingulfed with avaiations that it becomes a part of who we are. We don't just fly airplanes for a living, we are pilots. We are part of that aircraft we fly. When flying we feel as much a part of the aircraft as our arms are a part of our bodies. So, what happens is that we would rather get jobs for less pay so we can continue our passion than stand up to airline management for what we desirve.

It is a sad situation and not an easy one to fix. We must start with the flight schools. Educate them as to their future and what is becomming of "The Dream". Let them know from the start that it is not just about, "Getting the job" but about earning what you deserve. I wish I could sit here and tell all of you something profound that would make this problem correct itself from the top down, but it just doesn't work that way. Senior pilots tend to protect what they have worked so hard to get, and junior pilots simply want what the senior pilots have. So if their is to be a shift in thinking and compensation, it may have to begin with a new generation of pilots.

Just my passionate $.02 worth.

 

[stillaboo]

There seems to be alot of energy expended on this board where one regional guy tries to 'educate' the other. That is a wasted effort (the guy is already working for the company, right?), and something I personally find contradictory (I'm more on line with China Clipper in this aspect).

The effort needs to be made to the guys who are filling these positions: CFI's, Freight guys, and guys coming out of the military. But be honest about the idea you are suggesting:

A pilot who has dreamed of flying for 'the airlines' for quite awhile (often his/her whole life) should not take the job, based on the advice of someone who did take the job.

For the vast majority of us, we cannot plead that 'it was totally different when I started' - that's reserved for guys who started in the mid-80's or earlier (some might argue earlier, some later, but it surely was pre-RJ). To sincerely advise a pilot not to go to the regionals requires the advice to be given by a guy who never flew a regional jet (or never flew for a company that does/did), or stood for what he/she's saying and quit rather than continue to 'lower the bar".

To me, if you're not flying for Delta (mainline, not Commair) or someone else who's contract could be argued to be superior to Delta (any takers?), if you are working under any contract negotiated after the best contract you can discuss 'lowering the bar' all you want provided you're including your pilot group in that category.

For me personally, I see a double standard in play here. My personal opinion only.

If need to please flame privately. This thread is mature and rational at the moment, so let's not let it degenerate into a pissing contest.

 

[Lear70]

The problem: These same people who are doing the complaining are the same ones who, within the last one to three years, went to work for an airline who pays their pilots increadibly $hitty wages. And it isn't just them. It's everyone with CRJ, ERJ, FRJ, AVRO, SF340, J3101, J4101, etc., etc. in your profile. You just wanted to fly, Just like secks says he does.

Everyone needs to stop blaming Mesa and JO for all of the problems and take a long look in the mirror.

OK... Let me take a stab at it. First off, my background: I work for a regional now but I never sat in the right seat. Had that opportunity back in '95 and passed it up, specifically because of the wages and the desire to keep flying King Airs and Lears. I've flown everything from King Air and Learjet Charter to Learjet Fractional to 727 Part 121 right and left seat and due to a permanent furlough, I'm now at a regional so I've experienced pay and lifestyle at all of it except a major so I have a bit of a unique perspective.

First, let's compare someone's options out of college: Pay For Training, flight instruct, dust crops, tow banners, whatever... The majority of people will not be qualified for a job in the private sector OR the regional airline world until they hit roughly 1200/150 to 1500/300 hours. That said, what can you then do and what will it pay? We'll stick with the NBAA charter salary average (not corporate as there are very few corporate jobs out there comparably), excluding the New England states and West Coast (the cost of living offsets most pay differences).

Average starting King Air F/O Charter pay:
$18,000 to $24,000 per year
Days off guaranteed: 3 per month, rarely consecutively (13 per quarter per FAR's)
Pay raises over the next year: small to none until you upgrade which could take a year or two for most operators.

Average King Air Charter Captain pay:
$26,000 to $34,000 per year
Days off guaranteed: 3 per month (13 per quarter per FAR's)
Pay raises over the next 3-5 years: small to none unless you get into a Lear / Citation / Beechjet

Average jet F/O Charter pay:
$25,000 to $36,000 per year
Days off guaranteed: 3 per month (13 per quarter per FAR's)
Pay raises over the next year: small to none until you upgrade

Average jet Captain Charter pay:
$45,000 to $60,000 per year
Days off guaranteed: 3 per month (13 per quarter per FAR's)
Pay raises over the next year: small to none unless you get into a Gulfstream or Challenger which most small charter operators don't have.

Now let's compare that with Regional airline 50-seat jet pay (pre-Mesa numbers):

1st year F/O Pay: $22 per hour / $1,650 per month (75 hours) / $20k per year
Days off guaranteed: 10-12 depending on operator
Jumpseat and pass privileges for the immediate family.
Pay raises over the next year:

2nd year F/O Pay: $28 per hour / $2,100 per month / $25k per year
Days off: 12-14 depending on seniority

3rd year F/O Pay: $32 per hour / $2,400 per month / $29k per year
Days off: 14-16 depending on seniority

Upgrade by year 3 or 4:
3rd year CA Pay: $57 per hour / $4,275 per month / $52k per year
Days Off: 12-14 depending on seniority
Pay raises: Approximately 3% ($1,500) per year.
Average days off go up by 1 day monthly per year

Granted: Turboprop pay sucks, but the entire Regional Airline industry is moving towards RJ's and the industry is ALSO moving towards a much higher first year pay locked at 60% of Captain pay (about $30k per year).

Bottom line: Your first 5 years as a qualified pilot you're going to get paid about the same to fly charter as you are to fly for a regional... been there, done that. The difference is, after 5 years of flying charter you may have an extra 2,000 to 3,000 hours. After 5 years of flying Part 121 you'll probably have upwards of 4,000 more hours, 1,000+ of that being Part 121 jet PIC. Easy decision, given that the money is nearly identical. Harder transition to justify when you're already making $40k - 50k per year flying a Lear (that's where I was when I turned it down years ago).

The reason we talk about "lowering the bar" is because we are all struggling to fix the first year pay issue; Comair, Air Whiskey, and many others have been paving the way for us to accomplish just that. I don't agree that everyone supporting this argument has a double-standard, many refused to take these jobs when the pay was much lower (like $12k or PFT), but I DO agree that we should start at the flight school / college level. But I believe that has been proposed before on these boards... question is, what should the message be?

 

[bigD]

The effort needs to be made to the guys who are filling these positions: CFI's, Freight guys, and guys coming out of the military.

I'm still very low on the totem pole, but looking around the FBO's, all I see are CFI's chomping at the bit to make "the next step". Many would do anything to move on from being an instructor, even if that means accepting some crap job to do so. Perhaps if you started at the bottom and found a way to make instructing a better experience (better pay, working conditions, etc...), CFI's would be less likely to jump ship. This might in turn help the situation at the regionals.

Of course, making wholesale changes in instructing would be exceptionally difficult, but it seems to me that as long as you have instructors willing to give their left nut to move on to anything else, any changes you try and make at the regional level will be futile.

 

[labbats]

Look up the thread on how many hours a CFI works and what he gets paid, and you'll see why they jump at $18,000 and a jet.

 

[bigD]

Look up the thread on how many hours a CFI works and what he gets paid, and you'll see why they jump at $18,000 and a jet.

That's exactly my point - I'm not blaming the CFI here. Changes need to be made in the industry such that instructors will turn down that $18K jet job.

 

[wil]

Since most of us are ALPA members, maybe we should set a benchmark rate and adjust from there. I think 85/hr 5 year Captain rate for the 50 seater is a fare wage. FO pay should be 60% but first year should be no lower than 25/hr.

The fact that, no matter what the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED***ty wage, we all do our job in a professional manner is something that should be commended.

 

[100LL... Again!]

The idea of 'educating' the next generation CFIs on how to not lower the bar is a very nice, but very naive idea.

How many of you would have listened? Not many, I'll bet. I wouldn't have.

Even if you could convince 80% to hold out for good wages, the remaining 20% would take advantage of the situation and take the low-wage job anyway to 'get ahead'. And you know what? It would work. They get ahead on flight time and seniority, while the rest of us 80% compete for the few 'good paying' jobs.


The real problem?

TOO MANY PILOTS. Argue all you want about it, but this is the real problem. How can this be addressed? Let's hear some ideas.

 

[cl-65link]

"Starting salaries for Mesaba pilots, who operate both jet and turboprop airliners, is less than $17,000 per year. After three years that salary is only $24,000." That contract was signed in '96 not '03. New contracts should, at the very least, cover inflation and cost-of-living increases. I've seen the Mesa contract and I am a captain at Pinnacle with 7 1/2 years seniority. A Mesa captain, with the same seniority and flying the same aircraft, makes less hourly than I do. FYI- our contract was signed in '99 and is about average for the industry.

 

[Lear70]

Pinnacle's F/O's as well as Mesaba's are among the worst compensated in the industry. Pinnacle's CAPTAINS are about on par with the industry average as far as wage is concerned.

'Link is right: at the very LEAST a new contract should allow for MAINTAINING your quality of life and compensate for inflation. This time around it's OUR turn to RAISE the bar - a decent (not necessarily huge) pay raise, trip and duty rigs, and a minimum pay for F/O's tied with CA's pay (not to mention closing some of the loopholes in our Agreement you could drive a truck <or a dinosaur> through...)

 

[buzzer]

BIGD

Your quote "That's exactly my point - I'm not blaming the CFI here. Changes need to be made in the industry such that instructors will turn down that $18K jet job."

The Unions historically don't support the newby's wages...a change would help.

The balance of power between unions and management is constantly shifting. Since 9/11, it has been squarely in managements hands and they are playing their hand (as you would expect any public company to do). This downward trend in wages and working conditions for us airline pilots is too powerfully for us to stop right now IMHO. It's not fun. I have lost 40% of my pay and many pilots and the regionals will never see the type of income/benefits that they would have before this slide. As an individual there is little one can do. As a group, we have much power. There has to be cohesiveness among the pilot groups though for us to harness this power.

What can be done? Well, I'm no expert but I think having one common union or at least unions that work together in common goals would help. I also see unions with pilots that do the negotiations with the company. These company's will spend whatever they want on professional negotiators. We need to hire big guns with our dues. How about a plan from the various unions that helps to repair or prevent pitting the working groups against each other. It's amazing the things I see on these threads that contribute to the detriment of our careers by making our own colleagues an enemy.
Someone with more brains than me can come up with some ways to turn the train back around.

 

[stillaboo]

The real problem?

TOO MANY PILOTS. Argue all you want about it, but this is the real problem. How can this be addressed? Let's hear some ideas.

So it's a supply and demand thing, huh? Of course it is. So, the best way to lower the supply of pilots is to make the job less desireable - lower the wages, cut the benefits, increase the duty time, lower the QOL - make the opportunity cost of choosing to become a pilot too high.

There is no way to put downward pressure on the supply of pilots while making the job more desireable that I know of. So, since supply can't be helped (without concessions, which no pilot wants), we have to work the other side of the equation, and . . . stimulate demand.

Now, it seems to me that if you replace a 75 operating 3 flights a day from A to B with an RJ operating 9 times a day, you create more demand for airline pilots . . . but you lower the average wage of each individual pilot and lower the amount of 'career' jobs as dictated by the current system - the more people in the back and the heavier the plane, the more compensation you recieve.

In the current system, you have lots of low-paying jobs and few high paying jobs, and the only thing protecting the wages of the high paying jobs is the fortitude of the pilot group . . . it certainly isn't b/c there is a a supply issue. It does not bode well that many of the future mainline guys are current RJ drivers, guys who do the same work as a DL CA for 1/3 the cost, guys who bicker about who is to blame rather than how will the problem be fixed.

Fixing the problem requires pilots to value themselves more at all levels. Until pilots feel they are undervauled, they will never arrest the current slide in compensation, bene's, and QOL.

In short, it requires all pilots to change their mental outlook from "I get paid to do what I love" to "I need to be paid more to do this". For most of us who truly love to fly, this is not going to be a quick or easy process, or something we will ever do.

There is a mistique to being a pilot, an alure that is a driving force on the supply side (and the demand side to, planes are fast!). To both keep the mistique and continue to increase the QOL while subverting the forces of the supply-side quite a task indeed.

 

[Smacktard]

Talk about naive...

TOO MANY PILOTS. Argue all you want about it, but this is the real problem. How can this be addressed? Let's hear some ideas.


Until you start telling people that they are not free to choose whatever path they want in life, you cannot change this. Give it up folks, there will always be a bottom rung, and the bottom rung will always make crap for wages. Who knows, perhaps the bottom rung will always be PFT. God I hope not, but the way it's going, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

 

[WhiteCloud]

With respect to all.......Until there is a union that organizes ALL pilots right on down to a single engine commercial ticket holder and good jobs continue to require thousands of hours of experience in turbine aircraft the industry will always have operators that will take advantage of the market and abuse pilots so they can get the experience needed to move on. We keep asking new hires to stop taking these jobs but won't consider them without the experience. We have to change the industry from within. The next time a contract comes up WE have to go to bat for the new hires rather than continuing to ask them to go to bat for us.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I was thinking we could raise the level of performance required to become a professional pilot.

Raise the standards far enough that "certificate mills" would not be feasible.

The level of skill and knowledge required presently to get hired at a regional is disappointingly low.

Sorry.

 

[WrightAvia]

Lear70, you must be a Democrat...

Bottom line: Your first 5 years as a qualified pilot you're going to get paid about the same to fly charter as you are to fly for a regional

Dude...I gotta call Bull Schitt on your scenarios. First of all, you are assuming an upgrade time to captain of a jet, based on the economy of three and a half years ago. Two, you are assuming everybody made the same crap wages you made in 135. Three...your time off for 135 pilots doesn't fit any of the 135 flying I have done. Four, you're forgetting compounding. While some regional guy is eatng rammien noodles during those first 5 to 7 years...I'm putting money in the bank and other investments and living a normal life with hobbies and an apartment without a bunch of stinky pilot roomies. Five...I paid 19,500 for my ratings...most of those airline cult groupies paid about 100,000 thousand, or should I say their parents did. (if not, they are paying some serious jing for their education...I paid cash for for my 141 school).

I made 32,000 the first year I flew piston twins at a pax hauling 135 operator. By the time I flew my second year there, I was making 39,000 (more senior pilots got scheduled more). The third year, I would have been flying turbine pic on salary at 45,000 a year. (I left for a ground school at XJ...silly me)

In the first six months of working for this first 135 operator, I turned down a job that paid 55,000 a year to start as SIC in a King Air 350 for a power company. They would type you in the 350 in the first 6 months and type you in their Lear 55 at the one year mark.

I work for a different 135 operator now. I get all weekends as three day weekends. I get paid holidays OFF. I don't wear a pager. I work 10 days a month and if a holiday falls on any scheduled work day but a wednesday, I get a five day weekend off.

Also...I'll never make 90K a year, but a consistant 30 to 55 a year without furloughs, goes a long way. After all, I could have wound up staying at MESABA and wished I was putting 8,000 dollars worth of guns into my gun safe this year, as opposed to paying rent by selling off guns.