Low time Crop Duster?

[champilot38]

I am flying this summer towing banners with a super cub. Im trying to plan my next move and wanted to know more about crop dusting. I should have close to 1000 hours by the end of the summer. I saw some crop dusting schools but really dont have money to invest. Curious how a low time guy would get started. What would a first year pilot make?? Any info would be great.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

There aren't as many left, and most are single pilot owner/op type operations.

Because of the specialty training involved, it's quite rare for an operator to hire a "time builder". These are career operations.

 

[svcta]

duck...............

 

[sqwkvfr]

duck...............

...and RUN!! (cue "you know who" in 3, 2, 1...)

 

[ctab5060X]

I am flying this summer towing banners with a super cub. Im trying to plan my next move and wanted to know more about crop dusting. I should have close to 1000 hours by the end of the summer. I saw some crop dusting schools but really dont have money to invest. Curious how a low time guy would get started. What would a first year pilot make?? Any info would be great.

First and foremost the thing that will be a problem will be insurance requirements. More than likely you will meet all of the basic requirements except for one, and that is agricultural time. The 137 outfit I used to work for could not insure you as PIC unless you had at least 100 hours of actual spray time. That being said, go back to what Jungle_Jet said with most being single pilot owner/op types, it is very, very difficult to get the required time.

As far as flying ag is concerned, it is not the cakewalk that everyone thinks it is. It is very hard work, very long days...you will be flying in some of the worst flying conditions there are...heat of summer, high density altitude, and all in an over-gross airplane. The flying is very fast paced, very precise (within 3-5 feet of an imaginary line) but can be very fun. There is nothing like the thrill of 150 knots 10 feet off the ground, climbing just to clear the car on the road at the end of the run .

The best way to "break in" to ag flying is to find someone with an older, unused plane who is close to retiring and persuade them to let you fly the spare bird spraying water for a season. This should let you build enough time to satisfy insurance and learn from you mistakes without major consequences (i.e. streaking crops, burning adjacent fields, etc.) The only other major hurdle is that you will have to take some sort of state exam, and it all depends on where you are as to how hard of test it can be.

Hope this answers some of your questions...

If you want, you can PM me for more info.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Just remember, there's much more room over the power line than under it...

 

[ctab5060X]

Just remember, there's much more room over the power line than under it...

I'll second that...

Knew of a younger pilot that cut an Air Tractor cockpit off level with the hopper when he hit the lower line of some high tension powerlines...sad

 

[avbug]

That's a relative statement; if you can't climb over the powerlines, there's definitely more room beneath. Beneath has two hazards; the lines hang down and dip; the clearance in the centr of the run can be considerably less than by the poles, and fences generally run beneath powerlines. The lines hand down, the fence stick up, and you're left with what's in between. Couple that with the fact that both fences and powerlines can be hard to see, and that your gear is situated wel below the aiirplane, and your vertical stab well above...you may think you have the clearance, but you really don't. When it becomes an issue is when you arrive at the end of the field and rotate to climb out. The airplane rotates, but the airplane doesn't climb, and you have one choice remaining; go under. Know the field and the obstacles before hand so you know what your options are at that point...it's not the time to begin making decisions.

Most operators and most insurance wants to see a minimum of a thousand hours of ag time. You can get insured with less, but often you'll need to pay the insurance differrence; the operator may let you on board anyway, but today it's getting more and more difficult.

Going with an ag school first, such as the one in Bainbridge, GA, is a starting point. You don't come out particularly qualified; you've got about 40 hours of flight time and some basic instruction in chemicals, entimology, and other aspects of the job, but no experience...and 40 hours isn't much against the typcal thousand hour ag minimum.

Traditionally you would go to work loading chemical and mixing for the first few years, flagging, working on aircraft, etc, before being allowed to start spraying out rinse loads and doing light work in a cub or a pawnee. Opportunities do crop up (pun intnded) from time to time which may put you in an AgCat or a smaller Air Tractor such as a 301 or 401, or an AgTruck. Today, however, many operators have gone to turbines, and the requirements are higher. Many operators won't hire you without Satloc experience either...which comes back to the catch 22 of not being able to get hired to fly ag without ag experience, not being able to get hired without satloc, or without turbine...but how do you get it without getting hired? Therein lies the problem.

A good start, then, is an ag school. Yes, it's expensive, and no, don't believe anything anybody tells you about job referrals or gaurantees. They're blowing smoke; your best bet at getting a job is to assume you have no gaurantees, and start visiting every operator you can find in person to ask for a chance.

Every year a few jobs come open in Trade A Plane, which may help you get a foot in the door.

Remember that the flying part is the smallest part of flying ag. Presently I'm up every morning at 0300 to start mixing chemical, preflighting airplanes, loading and fueling and everthing else that goes with starting the day. When lunchtime rolls around, we've already put in a full day, and may be just getting started. The other day ended while replacing a carburtor on an R1340 and other necessities; a good ag pilot is as much a mechanic as a pilot.

Yesterday one of our pilots returned with a comment that he had no idea a little piece of paper could make the airplane feel like it was coming apart. He had a bit of crepe paper, part of a streamer fired off the automatic flagman on the wing to mark a place in the field, caught on a flying wire beneath his horizontal stab on a turbine thrush. That little bit of toilet paper weight material, scarcely worth noticing, set up vibration and buffet enough that he thought he was having a structural problem. He learned something new; flying ag is an endevor in which you will gradually come to know most of the available operating envelope of the airplane in ways you didn't think possible.

Ag pilots are farmers; you will need to know the crop as well as the farmers growing it do, and you'll need to know every plant that can enter into it, it's growth habits, life cycles, seeds, threats to the crop, treatment, chemical responses, etc. You'll need to know the same for every insect that can enter into the crop; what it is, how to treat it, it's lifecycles, breeding habits, impact on the crop, method of spread, etc. Are these vulnerable at certain times, are you going to do more harm than good by spraying and killing the predators for that insect? You'll need to inspect fields, trapping representative samples from the air over the crop, and from the crop itself, to do insect counts, and then be able to recommend to the farmer.

You'll be responsible for handling chemicals which are hazardous enough that a single drop on your tongue will kill you. You're responsible for your own safety, and that of anyone else who may come into contact when you apply the chemical, and you're responsible for strict compliance with the approved labeling for that product. You're also responsible for storage and security, which has been impacted in a big way since 09/11.

Some days you may load, some you may fly, and you'll be busy either way...it changes from fun to work very quickly, and when it becomes work and you become tired, you need to exercise even more vigillance.

What you'll make really depends on what you're flying, and where, and on what crops. You can make very good money one year, and none the next; the season, the weather, the crop, the airplane, all have a big impact. You might make a hundred thousand on a full time year round seat, and then you might make fifteen thousand the next year. It varies, and really depends on you. Are you willing to go to Texas for three months on a job, then move to Arkansas for two, then down to Florida for a month, then somewhere else...taking what you can get when you can get it? You might do well, or you might not.

I'm babysitting an airplane to go on fires. I'm waiting. It's not making any money right now. Last year this airplane flew more hours than anyone else on the fires, and it was already hard at work a month ago...but not this year. So we wait. Unpaid and waiting...how much will we make? Who knows? I hadn't been out for long last year when the engine failed over a fire and I lost a lot of work. Things change suddenly. Income is impossible to predict.

You're getting good experience in the cub. If you can get into a Pawnee it would be better, but it's still not much like flying an ag airplane. Ag airplanes are draggy, which your banners do well to simulate, but ag airplanes are also heavy, and the CG shifts; it's generally liquid and it sloshes around and can make changes in the way the airplane flies. Everybody does steep turns and stalls while doing their initial training, but most don't anticipate doing it at 75' above the ground. Ground reference maneuvers and heavy, tight maneuvering at those altitudes have small margins for error, and are a very different perspective on flying an airplane. So is doing twenty landings and takeoffs a morning, or starting your day at 0300, or having to thoroughly wash your airplane every time you fly it, doing so while it's covered in toxic chemicals. Flying the cub is a start, though, and it certainly won't hurt you.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Avbug, good stuff.

I think the point being made to the original poster was that this isn't a time building stop-on-the-ladder, so to speak. This is a career, and should be treated (and respected) as such.

 

[TWA]

Great post Avbug. Know of anyone still spraying in Ohio?

 

[ctab5060X]

There is also a small ag school just outside of Monroe, LA in Rayville. Can't think of the name right now, but I know they teach in a dual control R985 equiped Cat and possibly will let you fly a full season in their Pawnee.

Also, there is more to the ag world than just spraying row crops.

 

[avbug]

I don't know anyone in Ohio, but you can check with ag air update online, or the national aerial applicators association for some contacts.

Dynamic Avaition (K&K) has a sterile nsect dispersal program. You may occasionally find a dedicated mosquito abatement program. Bollwevil eradication, tree seeding and fertalizing, and other programs are out there. While not surface agricultural, cloud seeding and weather mod may also be lumped into the category, and of course there's firefighting.

Most of those assignments will be in turbine aircraft and will require a fair amount of experience and flight time....but again, all you can do is try.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Avbug hit it right on the head. Ag planes fly differently as the load goes out, they fly differently every pass. I've had several friends get killed playing the ag pilot game. It's dangerous. Know the game and get GOOD at it before you get into it.

Experience counts, don't take it lightly.

 

[ctab5060X]

Dynamic Avaition (K&K) has a sterile nsect dispersal program. You may occasionally find a dedicated mosquito abatement program.

Dynamic also has a spray division that does include dedicated mosquito control aircraft. However, they fly King Airs and generally hire a pilot/mechanic combo as they often are sent out on long duty assignments in remote locations.

As far as dedicated mosquito abatement programs are concerned, it all depends on where they are located. Generally the districts are a single county and they either contract out services for aerial application or run their own equipment. Just because a distict has their own equipment doesn't mean that they do have an airplane as many districts have helicopters. That being said, most do have fixed wing and generally are flying birds like Aztecs and Islanders.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any mosquito control operation that operates single pilot. Most have a spotter in the right seat, and some will hire a low time pilot to gain experince in an effort to train another pilot or a replacent for an older pilot. If you catch it just right, you might be able to actually fly and spray under the supervision of an experienced pilot, thus building your ag time in that fashion.

 

[avbug]

Bear in mind that if you do get into other programs such as mosquito spraying, most ag operators doing timber or row crops won't consider it as ag, and insurance generally doesn't consider it that way, either. Likewise, time spent towing banners or glidrs in a pawnee, even though it's an aircraft that's also used in spray operrations, won't be considered in most cases. It's a chance to get into an ag type airplane, but the flying is so different, and the handling characteristics are so different, that it won't be counted toward ag experience. Conventional gear yes, ag no.

Many mosquito programs are done in nosewheel airplanes, often multi engine airplanes. We do mosquito with an AgCat...it's out spraying right now, actually.

Row crop work and any herbicide work is fairly specialized, and has to be exact. A field treated with a herbicide will show skips in the field if the swath runs haven't been precise, and this earns the operator a bad reputation, and may result in a refusal to pay...one or two of which can result in going bankrupt. Additionally, chemical drift is a very, very, very big issue, and can result in law suits which will put an operator under in a heartbeat. Operators are usually very careful about who they let fly for them for those reasons alone, to say nothing of others that have been already mentioned.

All the same, if ag is really something you want to do, get your foot in where ever you can, and go from there. You need to start somewhere, so pick a point, and start. The hard part is getting someone to hire you in the first place. I've done aerial application in many different forms in aircraf ranging from small fabric covered piston airplanes to turbojet airplanes, to large four engine radial powered airplanes, and I can't just walk into any particular place and get hired.

A quick perusal of Trade A Plane turned up the following:

EAST NEEDS AG or fire suppression experienced pilots to fly the latest AT-802's, the up-graded OV-10D, and the new OV-10G model. Must have 2000 hours of fixed wing hours, of which 1000 hours must be AG or fire suppression time; 100 hours AG/fire suppression in the last 12 months. Also requires FAA Commercial or ATP, FAA CFI, FAA Instrument (must be proficient single pilot IFR), and Class II Medical. Must speak Spanish or be able to learn quickly. Please reference #TAP001 on resume. Fax resume and copies of FAA licenses, current medical certificate, and passport to: FL/(321) 777-1811, Attn: EAST HR or E-mail to: [email protected] No phone calls please. An Equal Opportunity Employer.

That ad, and the following, are currently on Ag Air Update Online (www.agairupdate.com):

Pilot partner wanted, must be ready to work, in Central Valley California, Established business, 50+ years. Ag Cats P&W 1340 Very serious inquiries only. 209-835-2838, or 209-610-2449. Contact John or Chuck (7-07)

Neither are entry level positions. You'll see a lot more positions advertised over the winter and early spring...right now most seats are taken because you're into the spray season.

The traditional method, and really the only method, for getting hired, is to visit every ag operator you can and talk to them in person about a job. It's time consuming, and there's the expense of being off work and traveling, but there's really no substitute. Most operators couldn't care less about your resume, it's paper. You need experience to be sure, but that's just the start. They want to meet you up front and know who you are. I can tell most of what I need to know about a pilot before we ever get to the airpalne to fly together, and most operators can too...you won't snow them. You either have it together or not, and they'll know. That's in your favor; be a good asset who they can use, and they'll know that too, but you have to be in their office, on their ramp, or on their doorstep for that to happen.

 

[TWA]

The timing of this is kind of dumb luck. This next week there is going to be an ag plane (not sure what type) working out of my FBO. I heard from one of the locals that there is a new anti fungal chemical for corn the doubles the yield and can pretty much only be applied by air. Because it only effects this one specific kind of fungus, drift is not a problem. I also heard that because of all this Ethanol stuff, this year has the most corn planted since 1944. This could bring a comeback to crop dusting. Know anything about this Avbug? I'm just goin off what I heard over morning coffee.

 

[avbug]

We were just having a talk about it this afternoon. Some of the AT-802's have been pulled off fire to do Fungicide, and we just had an 802 show up that got pulled off the corn to come do fires.

Doubles the yield would be a stretch, but increases it, definitely. By a considerable margin.

Ethanol is more of a pipe dream; the energy required to produce it makes it a low margin item...not that attractive. Rape seed (canola) and other products, however, do show some promise.

Ag won't go back to what it was. Bigger airplanes requiring more experienced pilots mean less employed pilots because they're doing more acres and using less aircraft. There's enough of a challenge for an inexperienced pilot to get into an AgWagon or other entry level piston sprayer, but really no chance for someone starting out to get into an 802 or turbine thrush.

 

[Princedietrich]

Know of anyone still spraying in Ohio?

The only spray operation I know of in Ohio is Trump Aviation, north of Dayton. But I think it's a one man owner/op show.

 

[TWA]

The only spray operation I know of in Ohio is Trump Aviation, north of Dayton. But I think it's a one man owner/op show.

I kind of inadvertently ran across his website the other day. Not much on it, but he is selling a Pawnee on Trade a Plane.

 

[TWA]

Ok, I'm not sure how this works out, but I'm going to pass on what I just heard anyway.

Right now there is an AT-502 from Evergreen Flying Services out of Louisiana dusting out of my FBO in Ohio. I just spoke with the pilot, and he said he started spraying with 250 hours right when he got his commercial. Except for spraying, I don't think this guy got a whole lot of formal training. He has had the hardest time talking with towers, needed the exact coordinates of the airport for his gps, and wasn't too sure on the use of sectionals. Definitely a country boy used to country flying.