Lost More Freedom Today

[flywithastick]

The weather's fairly nice (for July in Houston) and I decided to go watch some of the fine operators flying in and out of Houston-Hobby while I ate my Subway sandwich. Pulled into my usual dead-end public roadway and parked. Had the AC set and Rush playing on the radio. After watching SWA fly in and out, a PC-12, some Falcons and Gulfstreams, finishing up my sandwich I noticed the signs. "No parking or standing". Must have been 300-400 of them around the perimeter of the airport fence it seems.

Thinking about it a few minutes, it really upset me!! The Houston Airport System, FAA, TSA, and whoever else took the easy way out. They took away a freedom I had to go sit by the airport and watch the planes while I ate lunch. Not to mention how truly UNtimely this action comes after 9-11-01.

Guess I'll have to sit in the parking lot 30-40' from the perimeter next time I go have lunch at the airport. That'll keep everyone safe from any ground based weapons!! Too bad the federal gubment can't just do the job the Constitution says they should - protect the borders.

 

[Captain X]

Well you see, the signs prevent SA-7s from shooting down airliners.

Typical government beauracracy.....Unrealistic solutions to REAL problems.

Houston politicians are the finest at that.

 

[Dep676]

Typical government beauracracy.....Unrealistic solutions to REAL problems.

Just like TSA or should I say Thousands Standing Around.

 

[DIRT]

That reminds me of the random searches during code orange at ATL where cars coming up to the terminal to pick up or drop off passengers are subject to random searches. How many terrorist you think are going to stop at the checkpoint to get searched.... the answer 0 there just going to blast by the checkpoint and do whatever debauchery they were planning on in the first place. Typical knee jerk reaction that only affects the law abiding citizens. Today it's unconstitutional searches of your property and tomorrow we will be surrendering our weapons to the government. Granted we need some preventative measures but at least make it worthwhile measures.

 

[wasted state]

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ~ Thomas Jefferson


WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed,


that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends,
it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,
and to institute new Government,
laying its Foundation on such Principles,
and organizing its Powers in such Form,
as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence,
indeed,
will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes;
and accordingly all Experience hath shewn,
that Mankind are more disposed to suffer,
while Evils are sufferable,
than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations,
pursuing invariably the same Object,
evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
it is their Right,
it is their Duty,
to throw off such Government,
and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

 

[cessna_driver2]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~ Benjamin Franklin

 

[dispatchguy]

Same here - I always wondered. When we were under Code Orange, all ORD did was have one of those hiway signs saying that all vehicles are subject to search.

Had they had actually done it - there would probably had been a riot with all the traffic that goes down the Kennedy extension into the airport. I saw not one car pulled over.

However at PHX, it seemed they idiots in charge pulled over nearly everyone they could - except those with an airport/airline hangtag.

 

[Eagleflip]

Now, on the other side of the fence, certain actions by TSA and authorities seems prudent to me.

For example, whenever we land on runway 4R at JFK or depart 31R, I see several patrol boats out in the bay looking after us. They apparently question any civilian boats that wander into the area, as it is immediately underneath our departure and arrival corridors.

While we all know that a distant shoulder fired missile attack is a possibility, I certainly do not mind a little help to deter the short range shots.

Now, I don't know if they (the patrol boats) shoo the innocents away. I think not, as I've seen many a boat out there during our departures. In any case, I certainly don' t mind a prudent intrusion into life if it helps, even a little, deter the threat of another attack.

Come on guys--life isn't the same as it was before the attacks. If random checks of incoming cars to a terminal is the worst that you get, how bad can life be?

Please don't give me the "well, why then are they checking Grandma at the security screening?" Don't you think that there are people out there who would not hesitate to use the old--or young for that matter--in their quest to attack us?

That being said, I still think requiring a gate pass at security for jumpseaters is stupid.

 

[flywithastick]

Granted things changed eagle. And I see your point. Quite a bit different perspective with you in the plane and me on the ground looking up, I'll agree. Just a real shame anytime Americans loose freedom for little to no real gain (as I observed it today). That's *exactly* what the thugs wanted.

 

[DIRT]

Eagleflip,

I too understand your point but I don't think it is right for us to give up ANY of our freedoms in the name of temporary safety. Safety somtimes has to be sacrificed in order to be free and if we are not ready to sacrifice some personal safety in order to enjoy our feedoms then maybe we don't deserve to be a free nation. I know this is a tired argument and I am not one of these Randy Weaver freaks hiding in a cabin in the woods, but I do think it is true that if random car searches are ok then next we will all have a curfew and the "government" will be involved in every facet of our lives more than they already are or maybe it will be a good idea to search everyones houses without search warrents because of a "terrorist threat." Where does this end??

 

[cherokee]

While I do see both sides of the issue on this one I see 2 problems with DIRT's comments.
1. Everyone like to quote Ben Franklin, but remember he said 'ESSENTIAL liberties'. I think dismissing ANY 'loss' of freedoms is a mistake. Should we do away with needing ID's to board a plane? After all you have 'lost' your freedom to get on a plane unhindered.
2. Your statements about the gov't getting in everone's business is the classic example of a 'slippery slope' arguement--if this happens, then this will too, and this too-- with no basis in fact.
The gov't cannot search a house without a warrant because of the Bill of Rights- not sure anyone is going to vote that out so I would say that it would 'end' assuredly before this point.

 

[TXCAP4228]

The slippery slope is a legitimate worry.

If you can't park a car or bring (drive? sail?) a boat near to an approach or departure corridor, then what about businesses and residences nearby? I guaranty you that in a year or two some politician will say that its a threat to commercial air traffic that business are so close. What would they do? SIDA type badges for employees even who are not on airport property? Background checks? Maybe eminent domain to close down the businesses and force them to move?

What about residences? If there is another major terrorist attack, who knows?

Look at what politicians (generally on the left, isn't that ironic?) do every time there is a school shooting. It doesn't matter that we have laws on the books already, let's make some more.

Cherokee, you are wrong. If you think the slippery slope worry is a little bit out there, ask someone who's state has a "guns withing 1000 feet of a school law." There really is some draconian stuff out there.

One last thought for you, Cherokee. The Consitution was not originally created with a Bill of Rights. That came 3 years later. Why? Well, many of the framer's thought that an enumerated list might lead people to say that some rights were excluded. I think this puts your comment about "essential liberties" in an interesting light.

 

[Dep676]

Please don't give me the "well, why then are they checking Grandma at the security screening?" Don't you think that there are people out there who would not hesitate to use the old--or young for that matter--in their quest to attack us?

I do believe there are people out there that would older people to harm us. Those are few and far between in my book. It's the time when the TSA are searching grandma and grandpa. That the real terrorist are going to pass through the check point and get on your plane and try and kill you and everyone on board.

A few weeks ago I sat next to a older lady. She was telling me a story about a time she got searched. She had a sculpture of an Indian head that was about six to eight inches big. After it went through the x-ray machine in her bag. She was told that they needed to do some extra searching of her bag. She asked why. She was told because they seen a bow and arrow in her bag. Guess what it was part of the Indian sculpture that she had. So therefore it wasn't even real. Let alone it was real small.

So in my humble opinion that was uncalled for. That would be perfect time to let somebody through that was a real threat. Just because so numbskull with a little power saw a "bow and arrow".

These guys need to be straighted out and quick. They haven't accomplished anything since they started. Except for one thing waste my tax dollars hassling me and everybidy else that has to fly a lot.

 

[Steve]

What the Government is doing to protect us from the terrorists in a f*cking joke. Has anyone seen the terrorist prevention put in place on the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges after 9-11? Its one rookie cop sitting at the entrance with his lights flashing. I'm sure that gonna keep Mohammed Ali BaBa from flooring the gas in his rented van and pressing the trigger once he's halfway across.....


I pray that I'm wrong

 

[Dieterly]

Eagleflip,

If I follow your argument right, then they should check all the cars, or trucks on I-95, when you land or takin off at FLL, same thing at MCO and the BeeLine, give me a break!!

 

[flywithastick]

While I do see both sides of the issue on this one I see 2 problems with DIRT's comments.
1. Everyone like to quote Ben Franklin, but remember he said 'ESSENTIAL liberties'. I think dismissing ANY 'loss' of freedoms is a mistake. Should we do away with needing ID's to board a plane? After all you have 'lost' your freedom to get on a plane unhindered.
2. Your statements about the gov't getting in everone's business is the classic example of a 'slippery slope' arguement--if this happens, then this will too, and this too-- with no basis in fact.

It's the natural progression of society. Proven through history. Society will evolve to a more totalitarian system. Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchy, repeat. or somthing very similar to this.

The gov't cannot search a house without a warrant because of the Bill of Rights- not sure anyone is going to vote that out so I would say that it would 'end' assuredly before this point.

I think this has already been touched on, but houses cannot be searched without probable cause due to a document called The Constitution. At least for now, until the Supreme court throws it out as as an "unconstitutional living document", or some such liberal swill. Since when can we count on the feds following The Constitution anyway.

DIRT -

You lost me on Randy Weaver. Seems like he was just a guy who wanted to be left alone, unless you listen to the slanderous media and fed police (OK, OK - another topic). You thinking about Ted Kazinski? Definitely an anti-social kind of guy, IMO.

 

[JJay]

Your statements about the gov't getting in everone's business is the classic example of a 'slippery slope' arguement--if this happens, then this will too, and this too-- with no basis in fact.

Have we already forgotten what that idiot mayor in Chicago did to Meigs Field in the name of "security."

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Eagleflip,

If I follow your argument right, then they should check all the cars, or trucks on I-95, when you land or takin off at FLL, same thing at MCO and the BeeLine, give me a break!!

I think they did close the parking/viewing area on the northside of 18R across the BeeLine though. Kind of in line with what flywithastick was saying about Hobby.

 

[Eagleflip]

So, all those who think I advocate closure of all businesses, schools and homes within 10 nm of an airport raise their hands.

Hmmm. Anyone. Buehler?

I merely pointed out that I perceived a somewhat safer operating environment by the virtue of these patrol boats. Security, for practical, fiscal or "rights" issues will be limited in some scope.

Whether these limits meet your personal criteria for propriety is the issue.

Interestingly, JJay, I too was just thinking about Mayor Dailey's disingenious politcal play in the Meigs closure. He cited security concerns in his defense, though this certainly was not the case.

Dep, to say that the TSA hasn't done anything since they've started is somewhat uninformed.

According to TSA, between February and November of last year, airport screeners confiscated more than 1 million knives, 58,000 “incendiary devices,” nearly 36,000 box cutters, 12,000 “clubs” and 981 firearms that were illegally being carried onto airliners.

No, to be fair, you ought to look at the source of that quote for a different slant on the TSA's claims. However, if one agrees that "where there's smoke, there is fire..." aphorism, certainly some of those confiscated knives were really knives, some were box cutters (I saw one taken from a pax at LGA security one day--no kidding) were real, etc.

The real question is not if TSA has done something to stop the terrorist actions from happening again, but if subtle infringements on our freedom are proper and ongoing

 

[ShawnC]

Eagleflip,

Give the government an inch they will take a mile. Someone has to take a stand, sometime.