lost comm clarification

[minitour]

What are the other opinions on this?

I lost comms on my long Commercial XC. I was on a code with center and after finally accepting the fact that I was NORDO, I squawked 7600...after about 15 minutes I put it on 1200 and continued (I was VFR). When I got there, I called FSS, got the number for Center, called up and they said that was exactly what the want to see. The 7600 catches their attention to say "Hey! I can't hear you!" and then after a while (once they realize it) the 1200 says "Okay, thanks for the help, I can keep going VFR no help needed"

The only time I wouldn't do that would be in B, C, or D...but enroute in E or G go for it...if you're VFR and could continue put up a 1200...

-mini

 

[JAFI]

Mini, you used the transponder to talk to ATC while acting as PIC, YOU broke the CODE!!

JAFI

 

[sqwkvfr]

And, what makes you think there will be no one at 11,000 ft in your example above? I can guarantee you ATC will only be protecting the MEA and your original assigned altitude. You probably have some simplistic single route situation in mind but there can be diverging and converging airways and terminal routes as well as random vectors and GPS directs, etc, all going on above you. Your direction of flight has nothing to do with leaving the MEA to comply with the quadrangle separation. It is not provided for in the rule. Thankfully the transport category airplanes have TCAS to protect themselves from you. I pity the poor slobs around you that don't have TCAS!

~DC

My DE on my IFR checkride told me different...she relayed the aformentioned "open mike" story from San Diego to drive home the point that there might very well be more than one aircraft with lost comms --effectively being blocked by the transmitter with the open mike-- rendering ATC unable to to protect the MEA.

Get it now?

She said to climb to the minimum IFR altitude appropriate for your course, which might not necessarily be the MEA. I would think that in the sort of situation she described, the chances of a mid-air would be greatly reduced if you were on the correct altitude with respect to your course.

Thanks for the civil response, BTW. Real nice. I would think that someone who claims to spend time in the training department would be a little more understanding, empathetic and diplomatic.

 

[minitour]

Mini, you used the transponder to talk to ATC while acting as PIC, YOU broke the CODE!!

JAFI

Are they after me now?...they're always after me lucky charms!!!

-mini

 

[Donsa320]

My DE on my IFR checkride told me different...she relayed the aformentioned "open mike" story from San Diego to drive home the point that there might very well be more than one aircraft with lost comms --effectively being blocked by the transmitter with the open mike-- rendering ATC unable to to protect the MEA.

Get it now?

She said to climb to the minimum IFR altitude appropriate for your course, which might not necessarily be the MEA. I would think that in the sort of situation she described, the chances of a mid-air would be greatly reduced if you were on the correct altitude with respect to your course.

Thanks for the civil response, BTW. Real nice. I would think that someone who claims to spend time in the training department would be a little more understanding, empathetic and diplomatic.

No, sorry, I do not "get it now". Was this an enroute loss of communications or during the vectors for approach with several airplanes being spaced for arrrival or what?
Enroute there should be little need for any draconian action to be taken. Watch for changes in minimum altitudes and try alternate communication outlets like towers and FSS. Monitor the navigation aids that have voice. Again, changing altitude without a clearance would be WAY down the list for me.

We all wonder what would happen if approach control at a really busy place like ORD, DFW or ATL would go down. Your DE's solution does not make much sense to me there either and I surely would not do what she suggests, i.e. leave my assigned altitude. Arg! An exception could be in the west coast basins with mountains around the airports. Smart money really keeps a close tab on one's position and where a vector is taking you, whether you have lost communications or not!

No hard and fast rule can be written to accommodate every situation but don't do anything to make it worse.

And yes, I've never been known to be particularly full of understanding, empathy or diplomacy. On the other hand, airline training departments are not always full of that either. <grin>

I am not saying to not think for yourself but be sure you have all the facts possible before deciding on a course of action and especially when you instruct others as to what to do.

These theads do provide great fodder for interview questions though, I have to say that.

~DC

 

[HMR]

sqwkvfr- I agree with your DE. This is a good example of an important reg being as clear as mud. The two highest time pilots that responded to you both recommended flying the "MEA". I'LL SAY IT AGAIN: "MEA" is not mentioned in 91.185.

Here's something I've learned about honest questions in Aviation: If "higher time" guys cop an attitude when you seek advice, it's usually a good sign they don't know themselves.

 

[sqwkvfr]

And yes, I've never been known to be particularly full of understanding, empathy or diplomacy. On the other hand, airline training departments are not always full of that either.

I'll worry about that when I get at least ten times the number of hours that I presently have. That is, if everyone's TCAS is working properly enough to avoid me so I can live that long, right?

Donsa and HMR, I appreciate both of you taking the time to respond.

 

[Donsa320]

sqwkvfr- I agree with your DE. This is a good example of an important reg being as clear as mud. The two highest time pilots that responded to you both recommended flying the "MEA". I'LL SAY IT AGAIN: "MEA" is not mentioned in 91.185.

Here's something I've learned about honest questions in Aviation: If "higher time" guys cop an attitude when you seek advice, it's usually a good sign they don't know themselves.

If you are referring to me, you will note that I do not say MEA. I said minimum enroute altitude. That is something you get to decide. If you happen to be on a published route, then it is a published MEA. Off airways or published routes you get the responsibility to determine the minimum enroute altitude.

I hope you make that distinction.

~DC

 

[Donsa320]

I'll worry about that when I get at least ten times the number of hours that I presently have. That is, if everyone's TCAS is working properly enough to avoid me so I can live that long, right?

Donsa and HMR, I appreciate both of you taking the time to respond.

You will be fine...just keep on thinking and learning.

~DC

 

[HMR]

I finally figured out how to cut and paste!!! I know this is super long but at least read the 3 examples towards the end. I hadn't read this for awhile and it cleared some things up for me.

[size=+1]Section 4. Two-way Radio Communications Failure[/size]​

6-4-1. Two-way Radio Communications Failure​

a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).




b. Whether two-way communications failure constitutes an emergency depends on the circumstances, and in any event, it is a determination made by the pilot. 14 CFR Section 91.3(b) authorizes a pilot to deviate from any rule in Subparts A and B to the extent required to meet an emergency.

c. In the event of two-way radio communications failure, ATC service will be provided on the basis that the pilot is operating in accordance with 14 CFR Section 91.185. A pilot experiencing two-way communications failure should (unless emergency authority is exercised) comply with 14 CFR Section 91.185 quoted below:




​

NOTE-



Capitalization, print and examples changed/added for emphasis.




​

1. General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.




2. VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.




​

NOTE-



This procedure also applies when two-way radio failure occurs while operating in Class A airspace. The primary objective of this provision in 14 CFR Section 91.185 is to preclude extended IFR operation by these aircraft within the ATC system. Pilots should recognize that operation under these conditions may unnecessarily as well as adversely affect other users of the airspace, since ATC may be required to reroute or delay other users in order to protect the failure aircraft. However, it is not intended that the requirement to "land as soon as practicable" be construed to mean "as soon as possible." Pilots retain the prerogative of exercising their best judgment and are not required to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land only minutes short of their intended destination.




​

3. IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if subparagraph 2 above cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:







​

(a)Route.







​

(1) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;




(2) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

(3) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or

(4) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance by the route filed in the flight plan.




​

​

(b)Altitude.At the HIGHEST of the following altitudes or flight levels FOR THE ROUTE SEGMENT BEING FLOWN:







​

(1) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;




(2) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or

(3) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.



​

​

NOTE-



The intent of the rule is that a pilot who has experienced two-way radio failure should select the appropriate altitude for the particular route segment being flown and make the necessary altitude adjustments for subsequent route segments. If the pilot received an "expect further clearance" containing a higher altitude to expect at a specified time or fix, maintain the highest of the following altitudes until that time/fix:
(1) the last assigned altitude; or
(2) the minimum altitude/flight level for IFR operations.

Upon reaching the time/fix specified, the pilot should commence climbing to the altitude advised to expect. If the radio failure occurs after the time/fix specified, the altitude to be expected is not applicable and the pilot should maintain an altitude consistent with 1 or 2 above.
If the pilot receives an "expect further clearance" containing a lower altitude, the pilot should maintain the highest of 1 or 2 above until that time/fix specified in subparagraph (c) Leave clearance limit, below.



​

EXAMPLE-
1. A pilot experiencing two-way radio failure at an assigned altitude of 7,000 feet is cleared along a direct route which will require a climb to a minimum IFR altitude of 9,000 feet, should climb to reach 9,000 feet at the time or place where it becomes necessary (see 14 CFR Section 91.177(b)). Later while proceeding along an airway with an MEA of 5,000 feet, the pilot would descend to 7,000 feet (the last assigned altitude), because that altitude is higher than the MEA.

2. A pilot experiencing two-way radio failure while being progressively descended to lower altitudes to begin an approach is assigned 2,700 feet until crossing the VOR and then cleared for the approach. The MOCA along the airway is 2,700 feet and MEA is 4,000 feet. The aircraft is within 22 NM of the VOR. The pilot should remain at 2,700 feet until crossing the VOR because that altitude is the minimum IFR altitude for the route segment being flown.

3. The MEA between a and b - 5,000 feet. The MEA between b and c - 5,000 feet. The MEA between c and d - 11,000 feet. The MEA between d and e - 7,000 feet. A pilot had been cleared via a, b, c, d, to e. while flying between a and b the assigned altitude was 6,000 feet and the pilot was told to expect a clearance to 8,000 feet at b. Prior to receiving the higher altitude assignment, the pilot experienced two-way failure. The pilot would maintain 6,000 to b, then climb to 8,000 feet (the altitude advised to expect). The pilot would maintain 8,000 feet, then climb to 11,000 at c, or prior to c if necessary to comply with an MCA at c. (14 CFR Section 91.177(b).) Upon reaching d, the pilot would descend to 8,000 feet (even though the MEA was 7,000 feet), as 8,000 was the highest of the altitude situations stated in the rule (14 CFR Section 91.185).



​

 

[HMR]

For those of you still awake...here's the rest!

(c) Leave clearance limit.





​

(1) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) Estimated Time En Route (ETE).



(2) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.


​

​

6-4-2. Transponder Operation During Two-way Communications Failure




​

a. If an aircraft with a coded radar beacon transponder experiences a loss of two-way radio capability, the pilot should adjust the transponder to reply on MODE A/3, Code 7600.



b. The pilot should understand that the aircraft may not be in an area of radar coverage.



​

6-4-3. Reestablishing Radio Contact




​

a. In addition to monitoring the NAVAID voice feature, the pilot should attempt to reestablish communications by attempting contact:





​

1. On the previously assigned frequency, or



2. With an FSS or *ARINC.



​

b. If communications are established with an FSS or ARINC, the pilot should advise that radio communications on the previously assigned frequency has been lost giving the aircraft's position, altitude, last assigned frequency and then request further clearance from the controlling facility. The preceding does not preclude the use of 121.5 MHz. There is no priority on which action should be attempted first. If the capability exists, do all at the same time.





​

NOTE-


*Aeronautical Radio/Incorporated (ARINC) is a commercial communications corporation which designs, constructs, operates, leases or otherwise engages in radio activities serving the aviation community. ARINC has the capability of relaying information to/from ATC facilities throughout the country.

THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

​

 

[Lead Sled]

For a pilot of a high performance jet, it wouldn't be very practical to maintain your cruising altitude (typically FL370 or higher) until you reached the clearance limit. ATC will be painfully aware that they're not talking to you and they'll going to clear the airspace around you for miles. They want to you to be predictable. I guarantee you that if you maintain your cruising flight level until you get to the IAF or over the airport they're going to be wondering just what on Earth you're going to do next. If you encounter VFR conditions enroute then maintain VFR and land. If you can't terminate the flight VFR then make a normal descent (If you filed a STAR then you'll want to comply with any published altitudes and airspeeds on it.) If you end up having to shoot an approach, get yourself to an appropriate IAF and fly the approach. ATC will see what you're doing and you'll have the airspace to all yourself.

'Sled

 

[146guy]

"If the radio failure occurs after the time/fix specified, the altitude to be expected is not applicable and the pilot should maintain an altitude consistent with 1 or 2 above." (AIM)


I like this part, I'd bet most would just climb to their expected altitude. Going lost comm. shortly after takeoff would be a real fuel problem especially in the mid-west with low MEA's or MORA's if filed direct. A lot of the SID's only take you to 5000' or so, you would end up only being able to fly at very low altitudes all the way to your destination!

 

[nosehair]

Here's something I've learned about honest questions in Aviation: If "higher time" guys cop an attitude when you seek advice, it's usually a good sign they don't know themselves.

This is the wisest bit of information on this thread.

 

[NYCPilot]

Here's an easy way to recall the lost comm rules.
Just remember: MEA and C,D,E,F.


ALTITUDE
Fly the highest of your M.E.A.

M = MEA
E = Expected
A = Assigned




ROUTE
"CDEF" (Fly the route in this order)

C = Cleared
D = Direct (to the NAV aid if being RADAR vectored)
E = Expected
F = Filed


AB...C, D, E, F (just like the alphabet, in this order)