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Jvman

New member
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Posts
4
I'm looking for some advice here. I'm 33yrs. old, have a family with 3 boys, I earn around $60k/yr plus my wife's salary brings us to about $100k/yr. Within the next 5yrs. I hope to keep my wife at home and let me take the burden of.."bring'n home the bread". I'm currently a System's Analyst at my job and I am becoming extremely tired of it. So, I've been thinking about becoming an A.T.P. I've always been fascinated with jets and the experience of flying. I've researched the time and costs that are involved but would like some advice from someone that has.."been there, done that".

With a family of 3 boys I don't have much time on my hands as you can imagine, so I'm wondering if it's even worth persuing? I'm guessing I could devote somewhere around 3-4 hrs./week in training the first year, then increase that time going forward.

Can someone tell me the average cost and time it should take to become an A.T.P?

Thanks in advance!!
 
Jvman said:
I'm looking for some advice here. I'm 33yrs. old, have a family with 3 boys, I earn around $60k/yr plus my wife's salary brings us to about $100k/yr. Within the next 5yrs. I hope to keep my wife at home and let me take the burden of.."bring'n home the bread". I'm currently a System's Analyst at my job and I am becoming extremely tired of it. So, I've been thinking about becoming an A.T.P. I've always been fascinated with jets and the experience of flying. I've researched the time and costs that are involved but would like some advice from someone that has.."been there, done that".

With a family of 3 boys I don't have much time on my hands as you can imagine, so I'm wondering if it's even worth persuing? I'm guessing I could devote somewhere around 3-4 hrs./week in training the first year, then increase that time going forward.

Can someone tell me the average cost and time it should take to become an A.T.P?

Thanks in advance!!
Jvman,

On the surface from what you are stating I would encourage you to keep your current job and not try to pursue flying for a living. It has been awhile since my primary training but I would imagine that Student Pilot to ATP would cost you in the neighborhood of $50K plus easily. Again, it has been awhile since my primary training so I might be off on my numbers.

Also think about this. You state you can only devote 3-4 hours a week the first year to training. In all honesty thats not going to get you very far. You probably wont even be able to get through Private Pilot training your first year at that rate. Remember that to even qualify for an ATP you have to have 1500 hours total time. That will take you quite awhile to accomplish if you have another full time job.

Finally (and this is strictly from a financial viewpoint) if you are going to go for it and get into aviation as a profession I would encourage your wife to stay employed. You might come out of this with an ATP but you are most likely going to be in debt due to the cost of training unless you have $50k lying around somewhere. Plus starting jobs in aviation pay less than minimum wage. (It aint pretty, I was there in the mid-90's and know for myself) Plus job security in the aviation world is an oxy-moron. Something to think about if you have 3 kids and a wife to take care of.

I have been very very lucky. I found out at 16 that I wanted to become a pilot. At 24 I was a Captain at a Regional and at 27 was hired by 2 major airlines. Everything was going great until 9-11. I have found other employment in the Corporate aviation world but I have diversified myself and have a second job that is much more steady and helps pay the bills. Something to keep in mind if you decide to do this.
 
For the ATP your looking at 1500 hours total time. In that time you also need 500 cross crountry time.


Now 3-4 hours a week is the bare minimum I would suggest for private. This will make it a long road at that. It's possible. The hardest time is will be your CFI. Once you have that & if your lucky enough to get a large group of students you can get the 1500 hours in about 1-2 yrs. The cross country time is the bugger though.

You have a very long road ahead of you. It can be done. It depends on how fast & how much you want to spend of both of your salaries.

But flying is the best thing you can do w/ your clothes on. So if you really want it. Nothing will stand in your way.

Good luck
 
Aviation is very unstable, If you do take this option, It would be smart to keep your wife working for a few years more.

If you say you only have 3 to 4 hours a week free, how would you do when you get that regional job when you're gone 3 to 4 days at the time? ( spend 10 to 12 days at home in a month)!!!!

Whatever you decide, do your homework first, ask alot of questions to other pilots.
Good luck...
 
At this point it's definitely a tough decision considering time and money, especially in my case, the time. I would love to become a pilot, maybe one who flys a company jet, that would be ideal in my opinion.

My uncle flew a "Huey" back in Vietnam. He actually received a Medal Of Honor. So there's a little aviation history in my family.

I wish I had early visions of a satisfying career when I was young, but no, I was to interested in running around with my friends and picking up hot chicks (not that I regret the "hot chicks"). Boy I tell you what, life is precious, no doubt about that. My kids are going to get all the guidance they need to plant their feet on the ground and make something of themselves early on in life.

Don't get me wrong, my parents were excellent parents, but being "old fashioned" as they were and still are, especially my father, his thoughts were "let'm learn from their mistakes". I don't think that's going to cut it these days. Kids don't necessarily need their hands held all the time, but they definitely need some early guidance.

One other question, how much time on the average does an A.T.P spend in there job? In other words, how much time away from home?
 
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Looking for adventure? Tired of the same old routine at work?

You may want to look here, this is an FAQ portion of the Legion Etranger website, possibly there are some things there that might interest you...

http://www.br-legion.com/defaultfaq.htm

You'll only have to sit in a cubicle if you get lucky enough to be posted as a supply or disbursing clerk.
 
It would take you 10 years or more to reach that $100k a year and you may never reach it.

Stay where you are.
 
mmmdonut said:
It would take you 10 years or more to reach that $100k a year and you may never reach it.

Stay where you are.
I started working on my PPL in March 1993. I flew about 6 hours a week. I got my cfi in April 1997. I got my first regional job in 1999. I made CA for the first time in July 2004. I now make $60K a year. This is the most I have made flying. It has been almost 12 years since I started flying. It can be very difficult to support a family, yet alone yourself, on the wages you will make.

I would suggest you keep a stable job and fly for fun, not for a living. If I had things to do over...
 
"Becoming an A.T.P." will take you at least 1,500 flight hours... You will need to complete (at your own expense, roughly $40,000 - $50,000) your:

Private Pilot Certificate
Instrument Rating
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Multi-Engine Rating
Certified Flight Instructor
Certified Flight Instructor - Instrument
Certified Flight Instructor - Multi-Engine

Once you have all the Certificates & Ratings you will be at about 275-300 hours of total flight time and it will take you a minimum of one year if you did your training full time, at the rate you suggest you are looking at 2-3 years.

You will now need to build up your flight time, 99% of civilian pilots work as Flight Instructors. Full-Time Flight Instructors typically earn between $10,000 - $25,000 per year (and generally have no benefits such as medical insurance) and gain between 500-1000 hours per year. Plan on Instructing for at least 1.5 years, probably 2 years to be conservative. Once you have your 1,500 hours total (as well as a few other prerequisties) you can then take your ATP checkride.

Now typically people make a choice in career path, if they want to go airlines they apply to the Regional Airlines (ASA, ComAir, American Eagle, Mesa, Great Lakes, ACA, SkyWest, Mesaba), if they want to be a Corporate Pilot they would typically apply to Charter Operators...

Let's assume you want the traditional route of the airlines and say you get hired at one of the larger Regionals, Mesa Airlines (United Express, America West Express, etc...) as a Jet First Officer (they have Turbo-Props which pay less, but for simplicity let's assume the jet.) When you get hired you can expect to make somewhere around $18,000 - $20,000 your first year as a First Officer (Co-Pilot), second year will yield you in the vacinity of $27,000, 3rd year will be $30,000. All this time you will be working like a dog, possibly commuting to your domicile (base) and spending a lot of time away from your wife and 3 sons...

After 2-5 years as a First Officer (upgrades can be as long as 7 years at some companies) you may get the opportunity to upgrade to Captain. Let's say after 3.0 years as F/O you get to upgrade, for conversation sake. At this point you will be earning somewhere around $50,200 (line minimums of 76 hours/month x 12 at 4th year Captain Pay ERJ/CRJ-200)... Let's say after a year as Captain on the CRJ-200, you are moved to the CRJ-700 (slight pay increase). During year 7 of employment at Mesa you will FINALLY be back to making the $60,000 (assuming base pay, which is all that is guaranteed) that you are today...

Now let's look back at the path in a quick summary:

Primary training to get your Certificates & Ratings: 2.5 years
(assuming you working full time at your current job during your training)
Working as a CFI (Full-Time) to get 1,500 & ATP: 1.5 years
Working as a First Officer at a Regional: 3.0 years
Working as a Captain at a Regional: 3.0 years

After completing all of the above you should now be making slightly above $60,000/year (The salary you are making today).

Total Elapsed Time: 10 Years
Your age upon first making $60,000/year as a Pilot: 43 years old
Salary you would have been making in 10 years at your current job assuming simple 3.0% annual raises: $80,635
Debt from training costs: $40,000 - $50,000

Lost income from changing jobs from current career: -$322,095
Lost income plus additional debt burden from training -$362,095
(This is strictly salary differences and doesn't take into account the cost of lost benefits, etc.)

I realize flying can be a very rewarding career, and something people love to do. As a person in your position, I think you need to look at the realistic standpoint of things. There are a lot of younger people on this board who don't have a wife and family to support who will say "If you love it, go for it"... I am a mid-30's person with a wife and family to support, I understand the challenges you face... I don't mean to rain on your parade but want to give you a realistic view before you jump head first into something that maybe you should think twice about.

In addition, job security isn't very good in this career field, all of the above estimates do not include the possibility of unemployment at any point along your career (There are current over 10,000 pilots on furlough from just the Major airlines right now, American Airlines just announced more furloughs in coming months)... I highly suggest reading the forums here, the newspapers and other publications to better educate yourself of the state of the Aviation/Airline industry before making such an important decision...

(Disclaimer: All of the above figures are simply estimates and are used for demonstrational purposes only, a persons actual income may be less of greater than the above listed figures at any given time. Regional pay was derived from www.airlinepilotpay.com using Mesa payscales and guaranteed monthly minimums of 76 hours per month. Training cost was estimated at the lower figure of $40,000, this cost may vary depending on location and a persons ability. Time frames we assumed as moving from one job directly to another without any breaks in employment. The assumption was made that the current job would be maintained until training was 100% complete and then a full-time CFI position was accepted and the current job was terminated. Raises at the current job were calculated at 3.0% annually and did not include any bonus or promotional pay potential)
 
Falcon Capt summed it up quite nicely for you (disclaimers and everything!).

Supporting your wife and 3 children is just not going to happen on the loowwwww salaries you will make starting out in this profession, especially if your wife isn't going to be working. Getting back to your current salary of 60k with a flying job within the next 5 years so your wife can stop working is not very likely to happen.
 
JVMan,

At 33 I would say for you yo keep your current career and just fly for fun.

The previous posters seem to have covered most of the facts and figures that should interest you.

Bottom line, You are starting at zero time, late in life (Aviation career wise) in nearly the worst aviation market that there has ever been. In good times you are looking at 10 years to make it to a major. 100K + is mostly a pipe dream anymore unless you are at a major.

You mentioned corporate. Corporate for the most part is 24/7 on call with no set schedule, with a pay range of 25 to 80k. There are a few higher paid ones out there but do not expect to ever find that 120k a year G-V Captain spot. In the corporate world you will average having to change employers every 7 years. This is due to the fickle nature of the corporate airplane. Economy downturn, airplane is normally the first perk that a company drops.

Schedule wise: As a CFI expect 6 days a week 12 hour a day, Freight pilot (Not UPS!, the poverty kind of freight)- 5 day week, 12 hours a day....errr actually night. 5pm to 5 am type of stuff. Regional Pilot- Away from home 15 to 22 days a month, if you commute, which you probably will if your wife must work to feed the family, you will probably only sleep in your own bed 5 to 8 nights a month. Forget about Christamas, Thanksgiving etc. it is only pure luck if you can pull those off and be home. I managed 2 christmas days home out of 7 as an airline pilot. Major airline- Same schedule as the regionals but with more pay. Corporate pilot- 24/7 on call, no set schedule. Can be good or bad depending on who you work for. I have had months that I am home all but 5 days, and I have had months that I have been gone all but 5 days. My personal record was a 2 day call out for a 33 day trip!! Thats right, gone 33 days on 2 days notice! Also, day 16 of the 33 was Thanksgiving.

I have done each of the jobs that I listed above, I am currently corporate, but not by choice, I was one of the thousands laid off after 9/11. I basically started over after 12 years in the business. Went from 100k at the major back to flight instructing for $300 a week. Current Corporate Captain Gig is no where near 100K a year, and never will be, even if I spend 10 years here.

Be very sure how this decision will effect your family before you make it, This career is not what you read in the papers or see in the movies. There is a reason why the divorce rate is so high in the industry, Many wives and husbands cannot adjust to it.

Good luck on your choice.
 
All,

Most of you obviously have a passion for flying b/c from your responses and reading through other forums choosing to fly to make a living in this day and age doesn't sound like a smart choice, unless you're 18yrs. old and have nothing to lose. For me, flying for fun sounds like the only reason good enough.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your responses. That was more useful advice then I expected. Thanks for putting things in perspective for me. I clearly see that making a career change into this would not be a good move, however, learning to fly for fun is still an option, perhaps in the near future. I definitely want to pilot an aircraft before it's to late and as long as luck is with me I should have plenty of time to do so.

As you can see I just joined this forum, my first aviation forum ever. I've read some pretty interesting stuff in last couple of days, so I think I'll be coming back to just chat.

Happy flying!!
 
I wont call this a suggestion, just my thoughts on what I would do if I were in your position given the benefit of hindsight:

1. Keep your job, or look for another in your field that would enable you to meet your income goals.

2. Learn to fly. Work up through your Commercial and CFI, then instruct some in your spare time to build time and experience.

3. Network around your area airports.

4. When you have the flight time and contacts to do it see if you can work your way into some part-time contract flying with a charter company of corporate flight department. Build a reputation for being a really great guy to fill a seat occasionally. Dont look at it as seat warming, but as professional pilot services. Even get yourself a little training for a popular local type if you can afford it.

To me this path would allow you to enjoy flying and the rewarding aspects of professional aviation while still maintaining a family life and comfortable income level.

Being a full-time-steely-eyed-professional-aeroplane-pilot may look great for a while, but there comes a point when you notice that when you are home you still dial "9" first. With a family there are only so many times you can miss birthdays, trick-or-treating, holidays, school plays, teacher conferences, report cards, and anniversaries before it gets really old.

Bear in mind that as I write this I have been away from home for five days and my current job has me away from home for 3 solid weeks a month. There have been times in my career where I have worked 6 days in a month, brought home a full paycheck and thought I had it made. Undoubtedly I will have times like that again. If I were writing this then instead of now I might be telling you "HeII yeah, go do it! This job rocks!". Your results may vary.

Whatever you decide, at least go start taking lessons. You'll love it!!

Good Luck!
 
Keep your job, but learn to fly. It's not expensive in the long term to just try it at first. See if you have a knack for it. If you do, get your CFI and instruct part time. When you get the hours, you may do a little corporate or charter on the side. At that point, you may be able to decide if you're up for a career change.

In the mean time, perhaps the thought that you can go fly a plane in your spare time might make your current position more palatable.
 
I might have missed it, sorry if I did...but I dont think anyone mentioned that along with all the pay and stability issues, he should think about his wife and 3 sons and how he would have to be a stranger to them for the next 5- 50 years if he were to persue being a career pilot too. I hear alot of people talking about pay issues, but rarely do I hear about family issues which I think are all to often overlooked(unless you want to be 35 and on your 3rd wife)
 
JvMan: I think you've gotten some good advice so far from this board. I have another suggestion you might consider:

First, you should go ahead and get your pilot's licenses and ratings. Get your Instructor rating and teach part-time at the airport. (The only people I know who didn't get burned-out on instruction did it this way.) Opportunities beyond flight instruction will eventually present themselves, even without you trying for them. Basically, you can try on the 'ol flight suit on one leg at a time, instead of jumping in all the way, like most of us did.

Yes, the aviation/pilot employment market is absolutely in the crapper now. It's been much worse in the past, though, and is very likely to be much better in the future. This is a brutally cyclical industry. I agree with other posters who have asked you consider the impact on your family. The brutality of this career would definitely impact them if you end up on the wrong side of a furlough or worse. I'm often amazed how married w/children pilots keep their jobs and families intact.

Most experienced pilots will tell you there is no guaranteed career path in the civilian world, and that some of the better jobs you might have are generally not on the radar of a career-oriented pilot. I had one "fun" job; flying tours and river rafters around the Grand Canyon and Moab, UT. Great fun; couldn't believe they paid me for that.

Hope this helps,
C

PS: It is awesome you have a Medal-Of-Honor recipient in your family. Please do relate the story here. I'm sure many besides myself are curious.
 
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Falcon Capt said:
"Becoming an A.T.P." will take you at least 1,500 flight hours... You will need to complete (at your own expense, roughly $40,000 - $50,000) your:

Private Pilot Certificate
Instrument Rating
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Multi-Engine Rating
Certified Flight Instructor
Certified Flight Instructor - Instrument
Certified Flight Instructor - Multi-Engine

Once you have all the Certificates & Ratings you will be at about 275-300 hours of total flight time and it will take you a minimum of one year if you did your training full time, at the rate you suggest you are looking at 2-3 years.

You will now need to build up your flight time, 99% of civilian pilots work as Flight Instructors. Full-Time Flight Instructors typically earn between $10,000 - $25,000 per year (and generally have no benefits such as medical insurance) and gain between 500-1000 hours per year. Plan on Instructing for at least 1.5 years, probably 2 years to be conservative. Once you have your 1,500 hours total (as well as a few other prerequisties) you can then take your ATP checkride.

Now typically people make a choice in career path, if they want to go airlines they apply to the Regional Airlines (ASA, ComAir, American Eagle, Mesa, Great Lakes, ACA, SkyWest, Mesaba), if they want to be a Corporate Pilot they would typically apply to Charter Operators...

Let's assume you want the traditional route of the airlines and say you get hired at one of the larger Regionals, Mesa Airlines (United Express, America West Express, etc...) as a Jet First Officer (they have Turbo-Props which pay less, but for simplicity let's assume the jet.) When you get hired you can expect to make somewhere around $18,000 - $20,000 your first year as a First Officer (Co-Pilot), second year will yield you in the vacinity of $27,000, 3rd year will be $30,000. All this time you will be working like a dog, possibly commuting to your domicile (base) and spending a lot of time away from your wife and 3 sons...

After 2-5 years as a First Officer (upgrades can be as long as 7 years at some companies) you may get the opportunity to upgrade to Captain. Let's say after 3.0 years as F/O you get to upgrade, for conversation sake. At this point you will be earning somewhere around $50,200 (line minimums of 76 hours/month x 12 at 4th year Captain Pay ERJ/CRJ-200)... Let's say after a year as Captain on the CRJ-200, you are moved to the CRJ-700 (slight pay increase). During year 7 of employment at Mesa you will FINALLY be back to making the $60,000 (assuming base pay, which is all that is guaranteed) that you are today...

Now let's look back at the path in a quick summary:

Primary training to get your Certificates & Ratings: 2.5 years
(assuming you working full time at your current job during your training)
Working as a CFI (Full-Time) to get 1,500 & ATP: 1.5 years
Working as a First Officer at a Regional: 3.0 years
Working as a Captain at a Regional: 3.0 years

After completing all of the above you should now be making slightly above $60,000/year (The salary you are making today).

Total Elapsed Time: 10 Years
Your age upon first making $60,000/year as a Pilot: 43 years old
Salary you would have been making in 10 years at your current job assuming simple 3.0% annual raises: $80,635
Debt from training costs: $40,000 - $50,000

Lost income from changing jobs from current career: -$322,095
Lost income plus additional debt burden from training -$362,095
(This is strictly salary differences and doesn't take into account the cost of lost benefits, etc.)

I realize flying can be a very rewarding career, and something people love to do. As a person in your position, I think you need to look at the realistic standpoint of things. There are a lot of younger people on this board who don't have a wife and family to support who will say "If you love it, go for it"... I am a mid-30's person with a wife and family to support, I understand the challenges you face... I don't mean to rain on your parade but want to give you a realistic view before you jump head first into something that maybe you should think twice about.

In addition, job security isn't very good in this career field, all of the above estimates do not include the possibility of unemployment at any point along your career (There are current over 10,000 pilots on furlough from just the Major airlines right now, American Airlines just announced more furloughs in coming months)... I highly suggest reading the forums here, the newspapers and other publications to better educate yourself of the state of the Aviation/Airline industry before making such an important decision...

(Disclaimer: All of the above figures are simply estimates and are used for demonstrational purposes only, a persons actual income may be less of greater than the above listed figures at any given time. Regional pay was derived from www.airlinepilotpay.com using Mesa payscales and guaranteed monthly minimums of 76 hours per month. Training cost was estimated at the lower figure of $40,000, this cost may vary depending on location and a persons ability. Time frames we assumed as moving from one job directly to another without any breaks in employment. The assumption was made that the current job would be maintained until training was 100% complete and then a full-time CFI position was accepted and the current job was terminated. Raises at the current job were calculated at 3.0% annually and did not include any bonus or promotional pay potential)
Good post, I agree!
Stay with your current career and fly on the side for fun.
 
Falcon Capt said:
Now typically people make a choice in career path, if they want to go airlines they apply to the Regional Airlines (ASA, ComAir, American Eagle, Mesa, Great Lakes, ACA, SkyWest, Mesaba), if they want to be a Corporate Pilot they would typically apply to Charter Operators...

Falcon Capt-

Awsome post. From the standpoint pay and stability, would you say that the coorporate route is more promising these days (asuming prosperous companies that are not about to drop their flight depts)?
 

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