long cross country flights

[cforst513]

i was reading the thread on that 20 year old who went down in lake michigan, and i got to thinking. here's a question for you gen aviation people out there: i currently reside in Ohio but will more than likely train down in florida. let's say that I want to do some time building and plan a cross-country from florida to ohio, a trip to the tune of about 900 nm. when might i try to tackle this kind of a trip. should i wait to be instrument rated in case any unforseen weather pops up? when were you ready for a trip of this magnitude?

 

[Flightjock30]

PM me for some information on tackling long X-Countries.

 

[Goose Egg]

cforst,

IFR in a small airplane can get you into just as much trouble--an IFR trip like that in a single-engine airplane with ice and/or thunderstorms might be above my skill level as a 500+ hour CFII. An instrument rating does not make you or your airplane invincible. Even in my limited experience, I've seen many pilots with misconceptions of what they or their airplanes can do. For example, I've seen newly rated instrument pilots that think that they can tackle the same weather as airliners do. Also, I've seen ex airline guys that think that GA planes can do everything that their airliners could. It just doesn't work that way, that's all.

I think it'd be a fun challenge to try it VFR though, and you can always get flight following if you worried about always having ATC contact. As Buck wrote in Weather Flying, just make sure that you are a "weather skeptic" and always have an alternate plan of action.

Edit: I don't want to come across as not being in favor of getting an instrument rating. Far from it, in fact. Instrument flying is what I find to be the most satisfying and enjoyable, and any additional experience is beneficial. I'm just saying that in a GA single on a trip like that, I think that it would be much easier to manage the risks involved while flying under good (i.e. not night, not marginal) VFR restrictions.

-Goose

 

[labbats]

A well thought out and researched cross country with landmarks, GPS, and weather knowledge will get you a lot farther than an IFR rating alone. Just know your limits and how to recognize when safety is being pressed.

I used to ask when one of my students would turn around or land before they took off on a long x-country. Most times they hadn't even thought of it.

If you find yourself ducking below clouds less than 2000' AGL, land. If you see Tstorms ahead, land. If you have any questions about weather ahead, be sure you know how to reach FSS through an RCO. But most importantly, have fun. Flying is supposed to be fun, and too often students get caught up in just passing lesson ###. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Andy Neill]

OK, so there I was in 1976 working on my airplane ratings and signed off for my first solo cross country. I planned a trip from Colorado Springs to as far east as Ohio and as far west as Arizona. It took two weeks. Of course at the time I had over 3000 helicopter, a commercial RW certificate and RW Instrument rating.

labbats gave some excellent guidance concerning weather that I SHOULD have followed. By not doing so, I found myself dodging radio attenae in snow in Kansas and descending through an 8000' thick cloud layer over Pueblo, CO.

 

[Fury220]

I can see how having your IFR ticket could really help with the planning, as one frontal passage could otherwise wreck your trip. The extra experience and know-how as far as what to do in clouds is a big player too.

Ditto on what Goose-Egg said about the overconfidence, though. Serious IFR in a light single is a situation that would raise the hairs on the back of my neck, and it should be to you. Just be careful, and have fun.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Most Frontal passages this time of year will most likely contain some convective activity, So I would hesitate to head into that area IMC.

The biggest issue I feel would be embedded thunderstorms, you can't get aroiund them if ya cant see them.

 

[cforst513]

good advice so far. the main thing i was going for, though, was when, based on total time, would you feel comfortable with a 900 or 1000nm trip? the instrument rating thing was not the focus of my post. but good advice, nonetheless. keep it coming!!

 

[Fury220]

I think just about any PPL-carrying dude could handle the flying aspect of a long XC, but it comes down to smarts. A long XC is really no different than a 100mile XC as far as the flying goes. The flight planning itself is pretty much the same.

The difference comes in with the decision making process and the variables that arise from the distance. Will you do it all in one day? Will you RON somewhere? Which FBOs will provide you with the service you need? Can you get the WX updates enroute?

I suppose this is where experience comes in. If you're really hesitant about your planning, have a trusted IP look over your shoulder a little bit to give you some advice. 9 times out of 10, he'll catch a little nit-noid thing that you would have missed otherwise.

Good luck, man -- this sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[Flying Illini]

a 1000nm trip is just 10 100nm trips. Break it down and you could fly a 3000nm trip, no problem. Stay smart when it comes to wx and terrain...just like you have through all of your training thus far.

 

[Lead Sled]

A 1000nm trip is just 10 100nm trips...

Well it is and it isn't. There are special issues associated with long VFR only trips by pilots of any experience level. (For example "Get-home-itis") There has been some good advice given already. I'd only add the need to make sure you have sound personal weather minimums, the self-dicipline to stick with them, allow yourself plenty of time (then add some extra), and finally take a credit card with you so that you can buy a airline ticket or rent a car if things really go south on you. FWIW, I think that your proposed trip would be a lot of fun. One of these days I'd like to take a few months and fly a Stearman to all of the lower 48 states.

'Sled

 

[PeteCO]

i was reading the thread on that 20 year old who went down in lake michigan, and i got to thinking. here's a question for you gen aviation people out there: i currently reside in Ohio but will more than likely train down in florida. let's say that I want to do some time building and plan a cross-country from florida to ohio, a trip to the tune of about 900 nm. when might i try to tackle this kind of a trip. should i wait to be instrument rated in case any unforseen weather pops up? when were you ready for a trip of this magnitude?

I flew from Colorado to Ohio and back two weeks after getting my private, which was just over 1000nm each way. Most of the flight was at night and morning to avoid summer thunderstorms. I have made that trip several times since. The first time I was VERY well-prepared - I had reams of weather data, VOR crosschecks on all my waypoints, every chart known to mankind, etc. Stopped at the DSM class C, and used flight following the whole way. It was a blast - go for it.

 

[Lead Sled]

I flew from Colorado to Ohio and back two weeks after getting my private, which was just over 1000nm each way. Most of the flight was at night and morning to avoid summer thunderstorms...

Night, VFR cross-country: Probably not a good idea for a non-instrument rated inexperienced pilot. Just my personal opinion.

'Sled

 

[PeteCO]

Night, VFR cross-country: Probably not a good idea for a non-instrument rated inexperienced pilot. Just my personal opinion.

'Sled

I have always loved night flying, and do so whenever I can. It's a matter of risk tolerance, I suppose - I know some guys who would NEVER fly at night without a multi-engine plane approved for icing, an ATP ticket, and a rabbit's foot - blech. Just a joke, but I do know some pilots scared to death of flying at night in ANY conditions.

Out of at least 250 hours cross country in my 500 flight hours, probably 150 of them are at night. I'm still a beginner, but I am comfortable with night flying and know my limits. Ceilings were always very high and the weather was great. Obviously a new VFR pilot should probably not fly at night in marginal conditions. In fact, I did stop in Iowa City one night when the ceiling was down to about 4000 broken. It's all about common sense and risk management IMHO.

 

[logansun]

Like PeteCo said up there, I love night flying too. There is something awesome and surreal when flying at night underneath the stars. I would put some hours under your belt with an instructor first, get use to landing at night. Back to your origional question. I would break down the trip, as you would have to anyways for fuel, and find the interesting spots to visit along the route. As far as being mentally ready for this sort of venture, I think your the only one that can determine that. Good luck and as said before,have fun!
Oh, just curious where in Fl. have you decided to train? Logan

 

[Goose Egg]

...the main thing i was going for, though, was when, based on total time, would you feel comfortable with a 900 or 1000nm trip?

If I was going to pick a ballpark number, I'd probably say around 100 hours, but that varies from pilot to pilot, and only you can decide when you are ready. I think it's a good idea to push your limits and make yourself stretch, but just make sure you don't get in over your head.

A trip like that would be a great experience for you.

-Goose

 

[Lead Sled]

I have always loved night flying, and do so whenever I can. It's a matter of risk tolerance, I suppose...

I agree with your concept that flying is about risk management. One of the big lessons that all pilots need to learn if they want to grow old is what is safe isn't always legal and what is legal isn't always safe. A pilot has to simultaneously operate within 3 specific and defined spheres to maintain an acceptable level of safety and legality:

1. The pilot’s individual limitations. A freshly soloed student pilot will have different personal limitations than a 500-hour Private or Commercial pilot, who will have different personal limitations than a 20,000-hour airline or corporate jet captain.

2. The aircraft’s limitations. There will always be aircraft that are more suited for a particular mission than another. A Super Cub might be just the ticket for flying off of a sand bar in Alaska, but you wouldn’t want to try shooting an ILS to minimums in icing conditions in one. A Lear 35 is one fine airplane, but it isn’t the machine you want to be operating if your runway is only 3,000’ long. All aircraft have limitations whether they are a Super Cub or a B747. A Cessna 172 is probably one of the finest general aviation aircraft ever built and it has one of the best safety records. Can it be misused? Of course – fill it with fuel, put four people in it, and try taking off from an airport in Colorado during the middle of summer. You’ll probably make the headlines in the local papers.

3. The legal limitations imposed by the FARs.

Where pilots get into trouble is when they attempt to operate outside of the area where all three spheres intersect. The accident record is full of reports where highly experienced airline or corporate pilots “bought the farm” trying to operate in conditions that the aircraft wasn’t suitably equipped to handle. (For example, trying to shoot an ILS to minimums in icing conditions in a Super Cub.) The same thing goes for “VFR only" private pilots continuing into IFR conditions in suitably equipped aircraft or an experienced pilot trying to operate a light twin under conditions that would leave him/her “hanging” if an engine quit.

You’ve heard the old saying…

“There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.”

You can ignore the dangers, and place your trust in the laws of probability. (After all, they say that nowadays, an engine failure is a “once in a career” occurrence – yeah, right!) But remember, if you choose this path, the danger doesn’t go away, it merely lies in wait.

Hey, we’ve all been there. In the exuberance of youth and with the desire and drive to build up our flying credentials many of us are willing to do just about anything to get our hands on an airplane. There was a time when I wouldn't have given much thought to operating properly equipped and maintained single-engine or multiengine light airplane almost anywhere, anytime day or night. That however, was a long time ago. I now have a much better understanding of just what can go wrong and realize that there are just some operations that are better off not being attempted.

As long as I’m quoting interesting old aviation sayings, here’s another one that I think pertains to the situation…

“A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skill.”

In my opinion, there is a BIG difference between NIGHT VFR flight and NIGHT VFR CROSS COUNTRY flight. The former is a relatively benign operation; the latter is potentially very dangerous. The classic example of the dangers that can be encountered is the accident that took the lives of JFK, Jr and his two passengers. When it comes to night X-C, it's my opinion that you had better be IFR rated, in an IFR equipped airplane and willing and able to fly in instrument conditions. This is for a couple of reasons: 1) You can't see clouds at night and sooner or later you're going to find yourself in some. 2) Although in many parts of the country it's not a big problem, out west or over water (as was the case in the JFK, Jr. incident) you can often find yourself in an area where you have few ground lights. Mix this with a high cloud deck to eliminate the stars and you have the classic setup for a JFK, Jr. scenario. Once a VFR only pilot loses the horizon you can literally measure his life expectancy (and that of his passengers) in minutes - and precious few of them at that.

"Dark hole" VFR approaches and departures can be equally as deadly. I've lost a couple of highly experienced ATP rated friends while making VFR "dark hole" takeoffs and departures - their instrument training and experience didn't help them much when they were suddenly and unexpectedly disoriented.

My personal opinion of night VFR is that it's probably OK to stay local, assuming a well maintained airplane and you're not foolish enough to fly when or where there is a possibility of losing the horizon. Night single-engine X/C is not a smart move, nor is single-engine IFR (Day) unless you have a VFR ceiling underneath you the entire trip. Just my personal opinions, nothing more.



‘Sled

 

[mtrv]

Once a VFR only pilot loses the horizon you can literally measure his life expectancy (and that of his passengers) in minutes - and precious few of them at that.

Or at least remember the "wing leveling" auto-pilot, if you have one.

If worse goes to worse, a two axis A/P coupled with a terrain mapped moving map GPS would make me feel better!

 

[Lead Sled]

Or at least remember the "wing leveling" auto-pilot, if you have one. If worse goes to worse, a two axis A/P coupled with a terrain mapped moving map GPS would make me feel better!

I've got no problem with that just as long as you don't substitute mechanics for basic skill and ability. That still rules out night VFR XCs by VFR and non-current IFR pilots in my book.

'Sled

 

[Icelandair]

My personal opinion of night VFR is that it's probably OK to stay local, assuming a well maintained airplane and you're not foolish enough to fly when or where there is a possibility of losing the horizon. Night single-engine X/C is not a smart move, nor is single-engine IFR (Day) unless you have a VFR ceiling underneath you the entire trip. Just my personal opinions, nothing more.
‘Sled

Well this would really put a dent in my flight schools flying if they adopted these rules. Anytime it is actual the instructors all want to go up and get some actual especially to mins. And the TCO requires several night XC flights, many by solo students just after finishing private. These both can be done but it requires risk management and personal minimums.

 

[Lead Sled]

Well this would really put a dent in my flight schools flying if they adopted these rules. Anytime it is actual the instructors all want to go up and get some actual especially to mins. And the TCO requires several night XC flights, many by solo students just after finishing private. These both can be done but it requires risk management and personal minimums.

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't do night dual cross-countries. A few years ago I had the opportunity to sit in a vertigo inducing chair at the University of North Dakota. What an eye-opener that was. On the ground, the effect can be nausiating; inflight, the effect is VERY frightening. In fact, I have always made it a point to plan a portion of my primary student's dual X-C to include a night leg out over the desert, perferably on an evening with a high overcast cloud layer. It usually didn't take too long for the student to become disoriented. (Sometimes I had to "help out" the process by dropping something on the floor and asking the student to pick it up.) I didn't do it to scare them, I did it to make a point. I briefed my students prior to the flight about the dangers that lurk at night in perfectly good VFR weather. Why the bother? I've had a couple of highly experienced ATP friends who have died as a result of becoming disoriented during "blackhole" night VFR operations during "routine" VFR night flights. (One died in a Mooney, the other died in a Seneca.) I wanted my students' first (and hopefully only) encounter with spatial disorientation to be with a CFII at their side.

Like I said, it's one thing to fly night VFR locally around a city where there are plenty of lights. VFR Night X-C flying is an entirely different animal. You've got to be prepared (and willing) to fly on instruments VFR or not. Remember, one of the first rules of aviation is "What's legal is not always what's safe."
'Sled

 

[Flightjock30]

I fly out of Block Island Airport in the summers! This is an island located off the shores of both Rhode Island and Long Island surrounded by a dark blanket of ocean. At night when departing from here YOU HAVE GOT TO TREAT THE DEPARTURE LIKE AN INSTRUMENT DEPARTURE by keeping your eyes fixated on the instruments upon rotation out of the dark waters. A lot of planes have gone down in the waters there over the years.

In addition a 172 crashed killing the pilot and his passenger here in New York back in October. He was flying a night cross country flight VFR from Long Island MacArthur to an Airport up here near Albany,NY. He encountered a patch of clouds at night and became disorientated. They found the plane in a nosedown position in a field. All the components and engine were detected as all working properly! It was disorientation that killed him. And the thing is he was a 30+ year private pilot! Many hours under his belt, but he had no instrument rating. Happens to experienced pilots too!

 

[TurboS7]

In 1975 I flew an Ercoupe from Longview, Texas to Longview, Washington to Calgary Alberta Canada. I had a little Mark II radio that was good for about 15 miles. I have flown other small aircraft all over the place. It is great fun, just remember to file a flight plan and follow the roads or RR if the weather gets low. Land when the weather is bad and wait it out, get to meet lots of fine people along the way.All VFR.

 

[Big Duke Six]

I would highly recommend an instrument rating for a trip like this. It will give you flexibility if you need it, and some very important skills and knowledge. My first long X-C was from Denver to Detroit in a 172, all in one day. I was newly instrument-rated and it definitely made a difference. I finished the trip at about 10 pm in Detroit. It was VFR the whole way and could have gone VFR-only, but I filed IFR for the whole trip just to make it easier. But I would not have continued the after-dark portion of the flight had I not been instrument rated. I think I was above some scattered to broken clouds for some of the night portion, and it would have been VERY dark for a VFR-only pilot. Not something I would recommend! So, to sum it up, even though I didn't fly any hard IFR that trip, I did do some things that I couldn't have done VFR, and that made the difference between making the trip and not making the trip (in one day).

 

[BlueLight]

My suggestions as a newly minted instrument pilot - and I am still working on becoming less dumb....

Do some long X-Cs with an experienced instructor - and as many as your wallet can afford.

Better yet, start your IFR training now and find a good CFII to go on as many filed long x-c's filed regardless if there is even a cloud in the sky.

Soon after I got my private I bought a well equiped 182 and began instrument training. We did numerous long trips (+300 NM) but one trip from Akron to New Orleans (fuel/lunch stop in Chattanogo) was most valuable from seeing how the system works including understanding and recognizing risks with one engine.

After spending a couple days in New Orleans (Mardi Gras week of course) we plannned to return to Akron. Problem was the fog that took Lakefront airport (NEW) down to minimums and never lifted for two days - I hate that when that happens during mardi gras. But I digress. Many wonders I had such as how so many planes landed on I8R and reported how they broke out exactly at the min's which I recall was ~209'. "Lights... runway.... birds just like in the sim". You could barely see the hand in front of your face.

What amazed me also was the number of single engines that took off - legal under Part 91 - yes - but considering the airport is called lakefront for a reason, one engine + fog + no real visibility = vegas style decision making where snake eyes makes for a real bad day. Decision for us was easy -- we delayed our departure, bought some fresh clothes, flip sided the briefs and went back to Bourbon street to trade some beads.

Two days later and once the fog and layers lifted to ~800 AGL we took off. Using our weather uplink and ATC, we dodged buildup and convectives and got home mostly in IMC. Would I do that same trip back home single pilot w/ my new instrument rating? Not a chance. I fly to have fun and enjoy the experience and not because my career demands it. So why fly in conditions when it wouldn't be much fun??

Good Luck