Logging Turbo Prop Time

[Ghetto Sled]

I've started flying a King Air 200 for a corporate flight department under Part 91, about a month ago. I am not going to school on the airplane for another week. I have a high performance endorsement but do not have a high altitude endorsement; is there anyway to log the time I have already accumulated with out having a high alt. endorsement?

The max t/off weight is at 12,500-so no type rating is required.
It is certified for one crew member-so I can't log SIC, but I am flying.
The Capt. holds an ATP but not an MEI-so I can't log it as instruction since it's not being used for air commerce, which the FARs define as hauling mail.
I have an MEI.

I'm pretty sure I've answered my own question and cannot legally log the flight time. I realize that no one gives a sh&$ if I log these 50 hours and then go get the high alt endorsement during school. The only time I see this ever being a problem is if I have an accident and have reported the time to an insurance company-they could deny the claim on the basis that the application was not accurate.

If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know.

 

[aerodriver69]

If I remember correctly from the FAR's, if you don't have a high-altitude endorsement you can't log it a PIC but it doesn't say that you can't log it as multi or total time etc. I think there are a couple of exceptions that say if you are working 135 and have been through the company's training program for the pressurized airplane you are to fly you don't need the endorsement, but flying strictly 91 the endorsement is required. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[avbug]

A high altitude endorsement is required to ACT as PIC. Acting as PIC is not the same as logging pilot in command time. You can log PIC without ever acting as PIC.

If you are rated in the airplane, meaning you hold category and class (commercial pilot, multi engine airplane, land), you may log the time spent as sole manipulator of the controls, in accordance with 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i).

An endorsement is not a rating, nor is an endorsement required to log PIC.

You can't act as the pilot in command, but you can surely log the time.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.
(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) High-altitude aerodynamics and meteorology;
(ii) Respiration;
(iii) Effects, symptoms, and causes of hypoxia and any other high-altitude sickness;
(iv) Duration of consciousness without supplemental oxygen;
(v) Effects of prolonged usage of supplemental oxygen;
(vi) Causes and effects of gas expansion and gas bubble formation;
(vii) Preventive measures for eliminating gas expansion, gas bubble formation, and high-altitude sickness;
(viii) Physical phenomena and incidents of decompression; and
(ix) Any other physiological aspects of high-altitude flight.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;
(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft; and
(iii) Emergency descent procedures.

 

[A Squared]

Avbug's got it right. to put it a slightly different way, the FAA makes a distinction between *acting* as PIC and *logging* PIC. You don't have to be fully qualified to act as PIC to log PIC, merely "rated" which means you have all the appropriate things printed on your pilot certificate. (but not necessarily all hte apropriate endorsements in your logbook) I know that this seems nonsensical that you can log PIC without being the PIC or even being fully qualified to be PIC, but the FAA legal department has held this position for a while.

 

[TransMach]

Pilot Log Books

Mate,

Avbug and A-Squared (I respect them both) have got it right ... but there's one more thing to look at. Go read the FAR and you'll find that "Pilot Log Book/s" only appears in 14CFR Part 61 at 61.51, detailed below:

{QUOTE - Highlightss in color for clarity of message}
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

top
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:
(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or
(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
(i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by—
(i) The Administrator;
(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or
(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required authorized instructor clearances and endorsements—
(i) Pilot logbook;
(ii) Student pilot certificate; and
(iii) Any other record required by this section.
(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.
(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo flights—
(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which training was received;
(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air traffic control;
(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or
(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an appropriate category or class rating.
(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40897, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20286, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–110, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004]
§ 61.52

{ENDQUOTE}

Hence, you MUST keep a pilot log book as a reliable record and record the pilot flight time necessary to apply for a certificate, rating or privilege under Part 61 or demonstrate recency of experience requirements of Par 61.

Other than that, as far as the FAA is concerned, you can put anything you want into "YOUR" pilot log book. The problem comes up when you try to use "YOUR" pilot log book to demonstrate experience to a prospective employer, a competent court of law in any action (it best not be fraudulent) or the FAA for an action under FAR 61. For an action under FAR 61, FAR 61.51 clearly defines how you must record the flight time, type of flight time, conditions of flight, etc.

FARs Part 121, 125, 135, 141 and 142 all define how "operators" must record and document flight time in order to demonstrate compliance with the experience requirements, training requirements/objectives, and flight time limits and rest requirements of the applicable part. "YOUR" log book is "YOUR" log book ... not the operator's or the Fed's.

Now, that said, if you are flying a BE-200 in the corporate arena where a second pilot is not required by type certificate, FOM, or operating rule, I'd list that time as what ever it was (MEL, IFR, XC, etc.) but I would also make an extra column called (BE-200 FAR 91 SIC) and list it there. That way should any prospective employer ask you if you have counted your BE-200 FAR 91 SIC time in your log book you can say; "Yes, it is XXX.X amount, including XXX.X of this and that and without that time I still have X,XXX.X including XXX.X of this and that".

Personally, my log book is more of a personal diary than anything else. Any prospective employer is welcome to "Take a walk" through it. I'll explane anything in there. After all, it's my record, not the FAA's, the airlines' I've worked for, or the industry's.

Rant over.

TransMach

 

[avbug]

Now, that said, if you are flying a BE-200 in the corporate arena where a second pilot is not required by type certificate, FOM, or operating rule, I'd list that time as what ever it was (MEL, IFR, XC, etc.) but I would also make an extra column called (BE-200 FAR 91 SIC) and list it there. That way should any prospective employer ask you if you have counted your BE-200 FAR 91 SIC time in your log book you can say; "Yes, it is XXX.X amount, including XXX.X of this and that and without that time I still have X,XXX.X including XXX.X of this and that".

As there isn't any "FAR 91 SIC" in that airplane, excepting time spent as safety pilot, what making such a column in your logbook does for prospective employers is make you look ridiculous.

Part of keeping a clean logbook is keeping it in accordance with the regulation. Adding extraneous columns that are not in accordance with the regulatory guidelines of 14 CFR 61.51 doesn't accomplish that. What it does accomplish is painting the person doing it as not understanding the regulation.

What exactly impresses a prospective employer when you show him a logbook and say, "I have logged X number of hours in an airplane for which no SIC was required, as SIC, when I wasn't acting as SIC, nor qualified as SIC, in order to impress you with my professionalism and broad experience?" This particularly when the poster can merely log the time as PIC without any questions, legally and appropriately, and be done with it.

Now, as to the counsel to log categories of that time, such as instrument, cross country, etc...how can you log instrument time in an airplane when you can't log the time in the airplane? That is, one can't log SIC in that airplane, and in order to log the time as flight time, it must fit one of five categories iaw 61.51(b)(2): Solo, PIC, SIC, flight or ground training received, or instrucruction received in a simulator or FTD. With this in mind, if one intends to log the time as SIC (nonsensical as he can log it as PIC), one needs to be able to log the time as SIC...which he can't, which means he can't comply with 61.51(b)(2)(iii), which means that there is no provision or means for logging the time as instrument, cross country, night, time spent crossing the alps, time spent wearing a polka dotted tie, or time spent spent as chief chartholder on the washboard express.

 

[TransMach]

Log Books

Avbug,

Thanks for your opinion. I do value your point of view. In this case it appears to be yours and, in some cases, a point of view carried by a portion of the industry, but not all and probably not the majority.

Part of keeping a clean logbook is keeping it in accordance with the regulation. Adding extraneous columns that are not in accordance with the regulatory guidelines of 14 CFR 61.51 doesn't accomplish that. What it does accomplish is painting the person doing it as not understanding the regulation.

My point is that 14 CFR 61.51 ONLY requires the maintenance of a log book for specific purposes, those being certification of pilots under FAR 61 and demonstration of compliance with recency of experience requirements of FAR 61. The rule goes on to define how to record the applicable flight time. In these "definitions" the author is not defining pilot log books as a whole, but only entries made to demonstrate complaince with FAR 61.

What exactly impresses a prospective employer when you show him a logbook and say, "I have logged X number of hours in an airplane for which no SIC was required, as SIC, when I wasn't acting as SIC, nor qualified as SIC, in order to impress you with my professionalism and broad experience?" This particularly when the poster can merely log the time as PIC without any questions, legally and appropriately, and be done with it.

I understand that you feel/believe that when you are the SIC in a FAR 91 BE-200 and you are the sole manipulator of the controls (the flying pilot) that you "can" log that as PIC. The point is that there are lots'n lots of corporate operators that operate BE-90s and -100 (to a lesser degree than the rest of the King Air fleet), and BE-200s, 300s and 350s ... none of which require a SIC for day VFR ... with a two pilot crew operating in a two pilot setting. Both pilots are trained and checked by the company's "chief pilot". They use an operations manual and comply with company established standards of practice, conduct and procedures such as a SOP. They do this because it's "Just a Darn Good Idea", their insurance companies like it, their investors like it, the FAA likes it and their loved ones like it.

I have personally been responsible for hiring lots'n lots (really a boat load or two) of pilots over the span of my career and many of them had BE-200 experience. As an interviewer I, for one, always liked the guy who could tell me how much of his flight time in the BE-200 was included in his total time and how much of it was time that he was (1) a non-regulatory required FAR 91 SIC; (2) not responsible for the airplane but was the sole manipulator of the flight controls and logged it as PIC or SIC; and (3) was the pilot-in-command and responsible for the airplane. That candidate demonstrated to me that understood the rules, took maximum advantage of the rules, and was clearly truthful in the way that he represented him/herself. He/she also demonstrated that they weren't trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

Now, as to the counsel to log categories of that time, such as instrument, cross country, etc...how can you log instrument time in an airplane when you can't log the time in the airplane? That is, one can't log SIC in that airplane, and in order to log the time as flight time, it must fit one of five categories iaw 61.51(b)(2): Solo, PIC, SIC, flight or ground training received, or instrucruction received in a simulator or FTD. With this in mind, if one intends to log the time as SIC (nonsensical as he can log it as PIC), one needs to be able to log the time as SIC...which he can't, which means he can't comply with 61.51(b)(2)(iii), which means that there is no provision or means for logging the time as instrument, cross country, night, time spent crossing the alps, time spent wearing a polka dotted tie, or time spent spent as chief chartholder on the washboard express.

And if you buy into the notion that there is a regulatory requirement to maintain a pilot log book other than the certification/recent experience requirements of FAR 61 ... I would agree. My point is THERE ISN'T.

And, further, if there was a regulatory requirement to keep a pilot log book for all pilot time, and if the rule required you to keep your log book in a very specific way and record all flight time as a pilot in a clearly defined fashion, why do all the pilot log books that are commercially available (both in paper/bound form and electronic media) have a good number of undefined columns? By example I offer "The Standard PILOT MASTER LOG", published for National Aircraft Parts Distributors Association, exclusive distribution by AVSCO, Tampa, FLA -- Model SP-6. This example has:

Under Aircraft Category and Class - five blank columns, then;
A Bold Blank Column, then;
Under Conditions of Flight - two blank columns, then;
Under Type of piloting time - one blank column

While we may disagree, (and that's one of the things that makes our country great and keeps the lawyers in business!) my point is there is no regulatory requirement to keep a pilot log book other that the certification/recency of experiency requirements of FAR 61. Therefore, beyond that, do anything you want ... just be able to explane it if you are asked by someone who's opinion you care about or someone you want to "sell" or "swing" in one direction or another.

Now, your rebuttal will follow, and that's OK. I believe I have made my point clear so that the reader will understand.

TransMach

 

[joevollers]

Nobody here is giving you bad info

Some employers out there want to see that Total time= PIC+SIC+Dual rec'd.
LOG the Time... but make sure you can clearly account for it so that you can fill out an app and clearly explain yourself in the future!

 

[avbug]

Thanks for your opinion. I do value your point of view. In this case it appears to be yours and, ...

Mine, and that of the FAA, being factually and regulatorily correct.

Don't let truth and fact dissuade you in a discussion of regulation, however. Opinion, however unusual and incompatible with regulation it may be, is always preferred.

 

[TransMach]

Log Books

Avbug,

Nobody here is giving you bad info

At least we can agree to disagree and let the reader develop their own opinion, not yours or mine and that is what the medium is suppose to be about.

TransMach