Logging Turbine Time

[ebco]

I was fortunate enough to get 17 hours in a Citation 560 during a offroad race in Mexico. I did the majority of the flying which was the first time I have flown a jet. There were no passengers on board, and the plane is always flown single pilot. The pilot in an instructor. Is it possible to log this without much frustration in the future with interfiews. I would just like to add this to my total time. Thanks.

Nate

 

[maverick_fp00]

have the guy sign your log book as dual given... if you don't have a type rating it won't be PIC, I don't believe.

 

[501261]

There's two ways you can log it to your flight time, neither being PIC (since you don't have a C500 type). OF course the Citation needs to be American N-numbered and the PIC needs have an FAA licenses (you said this was in Mexico).

1. If the PIC has a current MEI (needs to be a MEI, not just CFI) you can log it as dual received and add it to your total time (you can also log instrument and night if that was the case). Just make sure the MEI signs your log book.

2. You can log it as an SIC under 61.55f, if you can get the PIC to, again log, that he was training you as an SIC under 61.55. You do not have to have completed the SIC checkout to log the SIC time under 61.55f. You can only log this if you’re the only person onboard and it’s daytime though.

If you are going to log it, the biggest thing to do is get some documents, have the PIC sign you log book, get a copy of the airplane log, it's Mexico so take the stamped flight plan, take a picture of you flying the airplane.

Personally I wouldn’t log this though (especially using the 61.55 method)! While I believe that technically it is possible to log this time, I would recommend against it. Here's why: 17 hours jet might seem like the world right now, but in the long run it’s pretty insignificant. You'll eventually get some real jet time. To an interviewer 17 hours in a Citation down in Mexico is just bound to raise questions. A better thing to do is simply tell the interviewer you have an additional 17 hours of Citation time, that you didn't log. This makes you seem more experienced and honest than the time you have in your log book. Also, if you are using the 17 hours to count towards the 1500 needed for ATP, you might get into a pissing contest with the examiner regarding the legality of the time, while I think its legal, it really doesn't matter what I think (or DOC, or FAA FAQ, etc.) it only matters what the examiner thinks at that point. The examiner might think that since the PIC was flying with the SP exception you are ineligible to log any time.

 

[ebco]

Thanks guys for the insight. I realize 17 hours is equal to nothing. I was just excited to be in a plane in which all the lights worked at night.

Nate

 

[avbug]

No valid reasons exists why the airplane should have FAA registry, or that either pilot hold FAA airman certificates.
That is not a requirement to log this time.

You didn't specify the purposes of logging the time, or if the time you log is intended to apply to a certificate or rating...or if you're just wanting to boost your total time and turbine experience.

61.55(f) isn't about logging time, it's about meeting the requirements of 61.55(b), and the conditions under which 61.55(b) must be met.

You may log the time as instruction received, provided you were indeed receiving specific instruction.

You may not log it as SIC, unless the flight was conducted under regulations requiring a SIC. Company or insurance requirements do not count. A SIC must be required by the aircraft certification (limitations), or by the regulations under which the flight is operated. The only regulation which will permit you to log SIC in this case is if acting as safety pilot. In this case, you must hold at least a private pilot certificate with an airplane category rating, and a multi engine land class rating.

You do not need the PIC to sign your logbook (though it won't hurt). You do not need a copy of the aircraft log, if one exists. You do not need a copy of the flight plan (stamped, or otherwise), and no photograph is necessary.

When applying for a certificate or rating, it is never a matter of "what the examiner thinks." It is a matter of record and regulation, which is clear. You are held to this standard, as is the examiner. Neither of you may deviate from that standard, which removes personal bias, and interpretation. On matters requiring interpretation, or upon which questions arise, the FAA Chief Legal Counsel issues binding interpretations which represent the Administrator, and are defensible in administrative court.

 

[501261]

"No valid reasons exists why the airplane should have FAA registry, or that either pilot hold FAA airman certificates.
That is not a requirement to log this time."

I don't know about Mexico, but if you are a required crewmember in a foreign country, with a foreign registration you are flying under their aviation regulations. In most countries you would need at least a license conversion to act as a pilot of a foreign REGISTED aircraft. If you can't legally act as pilot in that foreign country you certainly can't log it. Like I said, I don't know Mexico, but you certainly can't fly a F-numbered Lear in France without getting a license conversion or waiver.

"61.55(f) isn't about logging time, it's about meeting the requirements of 61.55(b), and the conditions under which 61.55(b) must be met."

True, but there is no requirement to finish the 61.55 checkout, you can technically log 1000's of hours under 61.55f, without ever getting a 61.55 checkout. That's what I was getting at.

"You may not log it as SIC, unless the flight was conducted under regulations requiring a SIC. Company or insurance requirements do not count. A SIC must be required by the aircraft certification (limitations), or by the regulations under which the flight is operated. The only regulation which will permit you to log SIC in this case is if acting as safety pilot. In this case, you must hold at least a private pilot certificate with an airplane "

Avbug, as you know the Citation 560 is CERTIFIED for two pilots, thereby requiring an SIC under any every flight regulation.

"You do not need the PIC to sign your logbook (though it won't hurt). You do not need a copy of the aircraft log, if one exists. You do not need a copy of the flight plan (stamped, or otherwise), and no photograph is necessary."

Of course you're right, no documentation is REQUIRED, this is more of a practical issue. I mean 0 jet time to 17 hours after 1 weekend in Cabo, that certainly catches my eye! Kinda of makes you go Hmm.

"When applying for a certificate or rating, it is never a matter of "what the examiner thinks." It is a matter of record and regulation, which is clear. You are held to this standard, as is the examiner. Neither of you may deviate from that standard, which removes personal bias, and interpretation. On matters requiring interpretation, or upon which questions arise, the FAA Chief Legal Counsel issues binding interpretations which represent the Administrator, and are defensible in administrative court."

See this is exactly why I wrote this, as we have two different opinions on whether you can log this as SIC. As you know there are no FAA legal opinions on logging time as an SIC with a PIC using the SP exception. Myself and at least 3 other examiners believe that if you have a properly certified SIC and have a PIC with Single Pilot Waiver, the SIC CAN log the time, since the PIC is no longer using the privileges of the SP Waiver. Under Nate's example he MIGHT be a properly certified SIC using 61.55f, thereby making him a legal SIC provided it there were no passenger and daytime.

Neither of us is wrong, but if Nate went to me for his ATP I wouldn't have a problem with the 17 hours SIC (if properly documented), while you could possibly violate him for forging his flight time.

We're both on the same page here, you simply looked at the Dual recieved scenario first and threw out the SIC scenario. I agree with you, if the PIC has an MEI Nate certainly can log the time. However, a lot of Citation drivers I know don't have an MEI, thats why I looked into the SIC scenario. While I agree that you shouldn't try the SIC scenario, I beleive that Nate MIGHT (if properly documented and administered) have legal ground to log it that way.

 

[avbug]

Time cannot be "logged under 61.55(f)." 14 CFR 61.55(f) is a proviso. It's purpoose is to qualify 61.55(b)(2).

61.55(f) grants no authority to act as PIC. It serves to clarify 61.55(b)(2), by stating the conditions under which 61.55(b)(2) may be met. Specifically, it states that an individual qualifying as SIC under 61.55(b)(2) must do so under day VFR or day IFR, and that no person or property is carried aboard except that necessary to conduct the flight.

61.55(f) is nothing more than a limitation on the conditions of the flight under which the requirements of 61.55(b)(2) can be met.

61.55 does not provide guidance for logging, but only for the authority to act as second in command. Logging time and acting as pilot are entirely different matters.

 

[ebco]

I was flying for the Baja 1000 offroad race as a radio relay and the race lasted about 20 hours. If I log the time as dual given because the pilot is a current MEI would this be OK especially in interview situations. Of course I need turbine and multi time, but I would be satisfied counting this towards my total time for my ATP. Thanks guys.

Nate

 

[cougar6903]

There's two ways you can log it to your flight time, neither being PIC (since you don't have a C500 type). OF course the Citation needs to be American N-numbered and the PIC needs have an FAA licenses (you said this was in Mexico).

1. If the PIC has a current MEI (needs to be a MEI, not just CFI) you can log it as dual received and add it to your total time (you can also log instrument and night if that was the case). Just make sure the MEI signs your log book.

2. You can log it as an SIC under 61.55f, if you can get the PIC to, again log, that he was training you as an SIC under 61.55. You do not have to have completed the SIC checkout to log the SIC time under 61.55f. You can only log this if you’re the only person onboard and it’s daytime though.

If you are going to log it, the biggest thing to do is get some documents, have the PIC sign you log book, get a copy of the airplane log, it's Mexico so take the stamped flight plan, take a picture of you flying the airplane.

Personally I wouldn’t log this though (especially using the 61.55 method)! While I believe that technically it is possible to log this time, I would recommend against it. Here's why: 17 hours jet might seem like the world right now, but in the long run it’s pretty insignificant. You'll eventually get some real jet time. To an interviewer 17 hours in a Citation down in Mexico is just bound to raise questions. A better thing to do is simply tell the interviewer you have an additional 17 hours of Citation time, that you didn't log. This makes you seem more experienced and honest than the time you have in your log book. Also, if you are using the 17 hours to count towards the 1500 needed for ATP, you might get into a pissing contest with the examiner regarding the legality of the time, while I think its legal, it really doesn't matter what I think (or DOC, or FAA FAQ, etc.) it only matters what the examiner thinks at that point. The examiner might think that since the PIC was flying with the SP exception you are ineligible to log any time.

How does logging time under 61.55(e) come into play while performing a Ferry flight? If i flew in the right seat and acted as the SIC for a ferry flight (same as a repositioning flight?) with only myself and the PIC aboard? It looks to me as it does not require you to meet the requirments of 61.55 (b)(2) (3 T/O's landings, and engine out precedures, etc. Am i reading it correctly??

 

[lamppost]

give me a break do you really think that this time will help you? all it does is give you a big ego if you log it. at least that is the way i would look at it if i were on an interview board. OOOOH i have 15 hours in a jet looooook at me!!!!!

if its a steady thing then log it but if just by chance you happened to get a couple of hours who cares?