logging time

[saviboy]

hi i just made a ferry flight for my flight school. i did the flight with anothre friend instructor. can somebody tell me how we could log the two legs in both our logbooks?
thanks

 

[A Squared]

hi i just made a ferry flight for my flight school. i did the flight with anothre friend instructor. can somebody tell me how we could log the two legs in both our logbooks?
thanks

By lying?

 

[bigD]

hi i just made a ferry flight for my flight school. i did the flight with anothre friend instructor. can somebody tell me how we could log the two legs in both our logbooks?
thanks

With a pen?

 

[Crizz]

Your instructor friend should have this covered.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Dual Given / PIC

Dual Received / PIC

*shrug*

 

[Bandit60]

"log what you need and fly what you can"

Just kidding

 

[paulsalem]

Both of you can log PIC:
The one who is Pilot-in-Command can log PIC. (the guy who filed the flt plan if its IFR)
If the other guy was sole minipulator of the controls, he also can log PIC.

Or one can log PIC and the other can log PIC & Dual given.

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Before logging it as PIC/Dual Received and PIC/Dual Given, it would be nice if training was actually provided. It sounds like it was a ferry flight to me, not a training flight. But only you two know.

Both of you can log PIC:
The one who is Pilot-in-Command can log PIC. (the guy who filed the flt plan if its IFR)
If the other guy was sole minipulator of the controls, he also can log PIC.

Or one can log PIC and the other can log PIC & Dual given.

You may wish to clarify the above--the ACTING PIC (the one who filed the flight plan if IFR) does not automatically get to LOG PIC by virtue of being the one responsible for the flight nor the one who filed the IFR FP. I trust you know the distinction, but perhap the post should be clarify for other readers.

 

[paulsalem]

You are saying that if you are actcing as the Pilot in command of an aircraft, but not flying it, then you can not log PIC?

 

[JeffSKDTW]

You are saying that if you are actcing as the Pilot in command of an aircraft, but not flying it, then you can not log PIC?

I am saying that in some cases, simply ACTING PIC does not give you the right to LOG PIC. Logging PIC is governed wholly by Part 61.51(e). That's it.

Part 61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

For sake of our revised hypothetical in this thread (the one you introduced by inference), we can exclude the parts relating to ATPs, CFIs, or solo student pilots, so we are left with just the following:

Part 61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, the first way we can LOG PIC is if we are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which we are rated. "Rated" in this case means what is printed on your license--it does not require any endorsements, etc.

The second way is being the sole occupant. That one is pretty easy, until someone asks, "what does sole mean?" It means you are the only human in the plane.

The last and only way we non-ATP or CFI types can LOG PIC is to be ACTING PIC in an "aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted". As you can see, simply ACTING PIC does not mean you get to log anything. More than one pilot must be required. What is often the case, a second pilot is required by virture of the specific aircraft that is being flow (those type certified for two pilots) or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

One of the most notable "regulations" that require a second pilot is 91.109. Specifically,

Part 91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

In this case, the safety pilot is a required crew member per the regulations.

However, simply being "required" is not enough as the issue of who is ACTING PIC is left open. If both pilots agree that the safety pilot is the designated PIC (i.e. ACTING PIC), and assuming the safety pilot is properly rated to be ACTING PIC (must fulfill the necessary endorsement and currency requirements), then the safety pilot is finally the ACTING PIC.

Therefore, bringing this conversation back around, the safety pilot (ACTING PIC) can now LOG PIC when the flying pilot is under the hood by virtue of 61.51(e)(1)(iii) and the flying pilot can simultaneously LOG PIC by virtue of 61.51(e)(1)(i).

However, what is important to consider is that the safety pilot, even if ACTING PIC during the entire flight, can only LOG PIC when the flying pilot finally lowers the hood. That is because the safety pilot is not a required crewmember until 91.109(b) kicks in (FP lowers hood). Therefore, two pilots are ferrying an aircraft, the flying pilot (FP) may LOG PIC, but the ACTING PIC may not LOG PIC unless the regulations require him to be sitting there or the type certification of the plane requires him to be sitting there.

It might seem to be unfair since the ACTING PIC presumably assumes all responsibility for the flight, but until the flight requires two pilots, the non-flying ACTING PIC does not get to LOG PIC.

Hope this make sense.