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Logging some multi....

maverick_fp00

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I'm only 20 years old and only have my private w/ about 230 hours total, most of which is PIC and cross country. There is a guy I know who flies 2 Navajo's. I'm pretty lucky right now because I get to sit in the right seat whenever there is a flight (it's all part 91). He isn't an MEI anymore so I can't log any of it dual given anymore (I only got about 10 hours dual given in the Navajo before his MEI expired). Anyway, I was wondering... if I got my multi, I know LEGALLY I would be able to log it PIC if I'm the sole manipulator of the controlls, but obviously I couldn't go up in the Navajo by myself without knowning the plane - I would die! So, my question is, whenever I have my hands on the controls, would the guy in the left seat (the real pilot) be able to log it also? The only reason why I would think he would be able to is for insurance purposes.

Kind of like the same thing as somebody posted under "Turbine Time".

Thanks in advance,
Nick
Fokker172@hotmail.com
 

Dignan

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Mav,

You said "obviously I couldn't go up in the Navajo by myself without knowning the plane - I would die!" I figure that's probably an exaggeration, and I'm not trying to get on a soapbox here, but I wouldn't recommend logging PIC time in a plane you don't feel "in command" of--that's just my opinion. I know what it's like to be hungry to build time (esp. multi), but you're young and the flight time will come soon enough. I'm not saying there isn't a lot to be gained by flying 91 legs, just don't log anything you don't want to be explaining in an interview someday.
As to the actual question you asked, I would guess (emphasis on 'guess') the other guy (the real pilot, as you say) can just log PIC. That's my two cents. Take care and fly safe.

D
 

RJPilott

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does your buddy have his ATP? if so, he is allowed to give instruction in aircraft he is rated in therefore you both can log it.
 

maverick_fp00

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nope, he sure doesn't.

The guy who flies the Navajo's now got his job exactly how I'm starting out. Sitting in the right seat in the Navajo's. He logged every big that he had his hands on the controls. Now he has almost 700 hours in the plane, has gone to Simcom and now is in the left seat by himself.

I don't think I would like to log a whole lot of PIC in a plane that I know nothing about. I would definately learn the plane.
 

NParker

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<< would the guy in the left seat (the real pilot) be able to log it also? The only reason why I would think he would be able to is for insurance purposes.
>>

If you wore a hood, then yes.

Get the ME rating and log it.
 

cvsfly

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The only time an ATP can excersize instructing priviledges is when he is in the employ of a 121/135 company in company training. It is not a license to instruct otherwise. Insurance requirements have no basis on the logability (word?) of flight time. Why would anyone let his cfi/mei lapse? It is many times more expensive and harder to get it second time around, especially if you have been inactive as a CFI. Take the correspondance course and renew. You never know when you could use it again.
 

RJPilott

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cvsfly said:
The only time an ATP can excersize instructing priviledges is when he is in the employ of a 121/135 company in company training.

im not too sure this is correct....

§ 61.167 Privileges.

(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.

(b) An airline transport pilot may instruct --

(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;


it doesnt say anything about 121/135/125/119/91.. just Air transportation service. 91 Fracs is an Air transportation service. Unless this guy owns the 2 navajos and flys them for his own pleasure and had an ATP then i can see a problem. But either way, they guy doesnt have an ATP so its moot... and i can also be wrong altogether. Its been a while since i looked at part 61.
 

cjh

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Nick,

Back to your original question:

if I got my multi, I know LEGALLY I would be able to log it PIC if I'm the sole manipulator of the controlls, but obviously I couldn't go up in the Navajo by myself without knowning the plane - I would die!

You are correct that you could legally log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls of a plane for which you are appropriately rated. 61.51 governs logging of PIC time. You are also wise to avoid flying it solo until you know the systems well. (Not to mention, it's unlkely you could get insurance without some dual time and probably a trip to FS.)

So, my question is, whenever I have my hands on the controls, would the guy in the left seat (the real pilot) be able to log it also?

There's a big difference between acting as PIC and getting to log PIC. The definition of Pilot in Command is found in FAR 1.1. Meeting that definition is how you get to ACT as PIC. That doesn't automatically allow you to LOG PIC time. 61.51(e) governs the logging of PIC time. Assuming neither of you are ATPs and that both of you are appropriately rated for the aircraft, the only way the PNF can log the time is to be (1) a flight instructor providing instruction or (2) a safety pilot (you under the hood) who is also acting as the PIC. The latter allows him to log PIC time for that portion of the flight during which you are wearing a hood. Otherwise, he cannot log any PIC time while you are the PF. BTW, it is an error to think of him as "the real pilot".

While we're on the subject, during the current period of time where you are flying and NOT appropriately rated, the other pilot, who is most definitely ACTing as PIC, canNOT LOG the time as PIC either, since he is not the sole manipulator of the controls and the conditions of flight do not require two pilots under the regs.

The only reason why I would think he would be able to is for insurance purposes.

As mentioned earlier, there's very little chance you'll be allowed by the insurance company to get your ME certificate, and then go jump in the plane and fly. However, being required to have another pilot on board by the insurance company has no bearing on 61.51(e) logging of PIC time. The "regulations under which the flight is conducted" refers only to the FARs and not any stipulations imposed by the insurance companies. I'm sure the insurance companies would like to change that, and thus gain even more control over the aviation industry, but that's another discussion....

Now is a good time to get familiar with the difference between logging and acting as PIC. MIght I suggest you take a look at Doc's FAR Pages. There's lots of great info there. http://www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html


FAR 1.1 "Pilot in command" means the person who: (1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person -
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated; (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Hope that helps. A Navajo is a great plane. Get your ME certificate and start logging that time!
 
Last edited:

Mickey

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Make sure you have your commercial multi, since you would be receiving multi-engine time, which is valuable, for compensation.
 
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