Logging SIC

[tgabster]

Hello,

I have a Q. Im in this situation where I fly part time as a FO for a Citation 550. The Captain is typed single pilot in this Citation ( he has no MEI). I am a CFII multi rated. Can I log any of this time? If so how?
Thank you for your help

 

[willNOTfly4free]

Does it fly 135? If you are required to be in the right seat for a reason (Regs, Op Specs, Insurance...) log it as SIC. If in doubt, put a note in the 'remarks' section of your logbook stating why it is logged as such.

But remember, it's *your* logbook. Fill it out the way you want to, but keep in mind that a future employer will be looking at those entries.

On a side note: One of the King Air F90's that I fly requires two pilots for both 135 and 91 ops. This is b/c of insurance requirements. All of my flying in this airplane, until I upgrade, is logged as SIC. I write a note next to each of my entires for this a/c that says something like, "Aircraft requires two pilots per insurance."

 

[340drvr]

The C550 may be operated either 1 or 2 pilot. It is my understanding that you (the captain) may elect to operate any given flight as a 2-pilot flight, designating himself PIC and you SIC. Provided you meet all the training and currency requirements of 61.55, you may then log SIC time. I'm assuming this is a Part 91 operation.
Just to clarify, regulations (2-pilot aircraft, 135 IFR without autopilot, etc.), or 135 ops specs are the only qualifiers to decide whether you may log SIC. Insurance by itself is NOT an FAA recognized criteria for SIC, so for any of those opeartors using single pilot aircraft with 2 pilots strictly due to insurance requirements, you cannot log SIC, ever. If appropriately rated, you may log PIC when you are "sole manipulator of the flight controls."
135 ops with SIC used in single-pilot aircraft must have an approved training program, and you must meet all the requirements and pass an SIC checkride in order to qualify.

 

[ekuflyer]

The Captain is typed single pilot in this Citation ( he has no MEI).

I don't think there is a SP type for the CE-500 type. If the the a/c in question is a II/SP (MGTW 12,500) then its the airplane not the type rating that allows it to be flown single pilot. If its any other 550 then it requires a wavier from the FAA to be flown single pilot, and like 340 said the PIC can elect to use a SIC (read loggable SIC time) anytime he wishes, because (again unless it is a II/SP) the aircraft type requires 2 pilots.

 

[RefugePilot]

New scenario CJ2

Do these same scenarios apply to the CJ2? If flown with 2 pilots as the captain chooses, is the right seat loggable? In a part 91 environment without an approved training program is right seat still SIC-able?

As far as single pilot operations, is it a matter of type rating to get SP status in a CJ or does being typed in a CJ means you can fly single pilot automatically?


Thanks

 

[ekuflyer]

Do these same scenarios apply to the CJ2? If flown with 2 pilots as the captain chooses, is the right seat loggable? In a part 91 environment without an approved training program is right seat still SIC-able?

As far as single pilot operations, is it a matter of type rating to get SP status in a CJ or does being typed in a CJ means you can fly single pilot automatically?


Thanks

There are 2 different CJ types the CE-525s (Single Pilot) and the CE-525 (crew). In part 91 flying if the PIC is 525s and nothing is defered on the plane that effects single pilot ops (there is a list of equipment that is required to fly single pilot) then I would say no unless the PIC is an MEI or ATP.
If you are going to be flying right seat in a CJ then the owner ought to just type you anyway.

You don't need an approved training program under pt. 91 for SIC. Just need to follow pt. 61.55.

 

[NoPax]

There are 2 different CJ types the CE-525s (Single Pilot) and the CE-525 (crew). In part 91 flying if the PIC is 525s and nothing is defered on the plane that effects single pilot ops (there is a list of equipment that is required to fly single pilot) then I would say no unless the PIC is an MEI or ATP.
If you are going to be flying right seat in a CJ then the owner ought to just type you anyway.

You don't need an approved training program under pt. 91 for SIC. Just need to follow pt. 61.55.

CJ type data certificate lists minimum crew as one pilot - therefore the CE-525s type rating - however, this does not rule out flying with an SIC, trained in accordance with 61.55.

Whether or not the PIC has an ATP is irrelevent for Part 91 ops. ATPs can instruct pilots in Part 121/135 ops, for Part 121/135 operators.

If the pilot is an MEI, and gives you instruction in an airplane that requires a type rating to fly it - ie CE-525 - then you can log it legally, as dual received, not dual received/PIC - not until you have a type rating in the airplane.

 

[svcta]

Yeas ago I had a friend who was flying right seat in a King Air 350 under 91 and logging it as SIC. I explained why he couldn't do this and while he ultimately agreed he explained that it was the only way he could show the time. He wasn't typed. I still contended that he shouldn't be doing it, and then we continued golfing.

Who looks after this stuff? Will anyone ever look at that and give a dam?

 

[ekuflyer]

Yeas ago I had a friend who was flying right seat in a King Air 350 under 91 and logging it as SIC. I explained why he couldn't do this and while he ultimately agreed he explained that it was the only way he could show the time. He wasn't typed. I still contended that he shouldn't be doing it, and then we continued golfing.

Who looks after this stuff? Will anyone ever look at that and give a dam?

You can log this stuff anyway you want. The FAA does not care. The thing to think about is in the future when you are in an interview and the guy asks you the question. Can you justify logging that time to him? Thats what you need to ask yourself.
If I was interviewing someone who had 500 hours SIC in a Kingair 90 then I would ask him/her to explain. If they could convince me then good on them.

 

[NoPax]

Yeas ago I had a friend who was flying right seat in a King Air 350 under 91 and logging it as SIC. I explained why he couldn't do this and while he ultimately agreed he explained that it was the only way he could show the time. He wasn't typed. I still contended that he shouldn't be doing it, and then we continued golfing.

Who looks after this stuff? Will anyone ever look at that and give a dam?

Legally - the FAA gives a damn if you are logging SIC time towards a certificate or rating - ie ATP. You can log SIC time in a King Air 350 under part 91 under a few limited conditions.

The 350 is a different animal to the CE-525, and shouldn't be confused. The 350 differs from the 525 as it is a single pilot airplane, certified under part 23, not part 25 like the 525. There are a couple of instances where an SIC would be required to operate the 350 legally.

1 If the aircraft came out of the factory with two additional fold up seats mounted on the rear bulkhead. The aircraft is then certified as an 11 passenger aircraft and requires an SIC, whether or not the seats are occupied, or removed in the future.

2 The King Air 350 is certified to hold a total of 13 passengers, so if the configuration is changed after it was manufactured, to hold the any more than 9 (I think) passengers, then an SIC is required on flights where there are more than 9 passenger seats occupied.

3 The King Air 350 type rated PIC, has a limitation on his certificate that states - "BE-300 - SIC Required". SimuFlite issues the BE-300 type with that limitation, then removes it after the pilot demonstrates a few things without the use of an SIC - one engine inoperative go-around, V1 cut, and approach to 1800RVR, among a few other things also. The SIC would have to be trained in accordance with 61.55.

The only other times you can legally log SIC time in a King Air 350 is if it were to be operated under part 135, and you have been trained, checked and qualified.

 

[livethedream]

what if the a/c does not require a type? can the right seater log PIC if they are a MEI/I? or instrument time?

 

[AC560]

what if the a/c does not require a type? can the right seater log PIC if they are a MEI/I? or instrument time?

Wouldn't be any different then being in right seat of a C172. If you are an instructor giving dual you can log PIC (you would be required to endorse the guy in the other seats book though as dual given) If you are rated in category/class and the other guy is an instructor you can log PIC as sole manipulator and he can log PIC for giving dual (and he endorses your book).