Logging SIC

[Medicryan]

Quick question for you guys. I may have an upcoming opportunity to fly right seat in a Navajo soon. I would only be flying on dead legs since it is a single pilot operation. My question is, can you legally log SIC if it is a single pilot operation and the company insurance does not require 2 pilots? Any loopholes or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Ryan

 

[leardawg]

You can only log SIC in a situation where FARs require an SIC, and you are appropriately rated and qualified. Even insurance requirements do not enable it.

 

[NoPax]

Part 135, Single Pilot, either no SIC authorized by Ops Specs or you are not SIC qualified (trained and checked) if SIC are authorized - you are a passenger on the 'live legs', and you can't touch the controls, or tune radios etc..

On the Part 91 legs, you may log PIC time for time you fly the airplane (sole manipulator of controls) - airplane is not assigned to you.

If the customer is being charged for the airplane the entire time ie on dead legs - the entire operation should be Part 135 - and you can't log any of it without being qualified.

 

[mike1mc]

Either way it will be good experience. You can log the time if you are a current and qualified Part 135 SIC, even if the aircraft is only single-pilot. Some say the time is garbage, and shouldn't be logged, but its really a matter of personal preference like logging Level D sim time. This requires and a checkride after completing the carrier's training program. You will be issued an 8410.

Do a search on 135 SIC and you'll find a LOT of discussion on the subject. If the operation is a IFR passenger-carrying operation under Part 135, then an SIC is required by FAR (135.101). Most (if not all) operators are given Operations Specifications paragraph A015 giving approval for Use of Autopilot in Leiu of a Second-in-Command (see also 135.105).

NoPax is correct. The FAA's position is that you can't even touch the radios if you are not a certified SIC and will be considered a passenger. Insurance has nothing to do with the regs. You can of course log PIC on legs where you are sole manipulator (repositioning, maintenance, etc.)

 

[FlyinTim]

if the pic would be perfectly legal flying alone...then you cant log SIC.

 

[leardawg]

Even if you couldn't log the time, the actual stick experience would likely be beneficial in improving your piloting skills and proficiency. This would come in handy when you actually have to prove yourself to an employer for hiring or upgrade. If there is some way to legally log it as PIC or SIC, great. If not, I wouldn't pass it up simply because of the opportunity to become a better pilot. I'm not advocating doing anything illegal "under the table", but if a PIC is willing to allow you to fly on 91 legs, go for it!

 

[TimsKeeper]

the "stick" experience will be logged as PIC time as long as you have a multi engine rating with high performance/altitude endorsements.

there is nothing much you can do with the 135 time in the scenario you explained...i would however put in your remarks section a description of what you did to assist.

 

[340drvr]

If you're an AOPA member, this thread in their discussion board covered the topic thoroughly.

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=5618

 

[Amish RakeFight]

the "stick" experience will be logged as PIC time as long as you have a multi engine rating with high performance/altitude endorsements.

You only need am ME rating to log PIC as sole manipulator. If you're going to ACT as PIC, then you will need the HP/Altitude endorsements.

 

[Medicryan]

Lots of good responses, thank you.

 

[185 flier]

Also if your employer trains you and you have a checkride in that seat and the company uses two pilots in order to take advantage of the abilitie to fly that crew 10 flight hours in a day then you can log all time spent in the seat not just when you manipulate the controls as well as run the radios etc.

 

[Fly High]

If the opspecs state that the company can use a properly trained SIC and if they have an FAA approved training program for an SIC you can act as SIC regardless of wheather the autopilot is working or not. Chat witht the Feds at the FSDO that oversees the 135 operator that you are referring to so you can see their opinion. Per our opspecs, we have SICs in Navajos and they log the time since they are properly training and our program is set up accordingly. They have to go by the same 14 and 8/10 requirements that the PICs have to go by.

 

[mike1mc]

If the opspecs state that the company can use a properly trained SIC and if they have an FAA approved training program for an SIC you can act as SIC regardless of wheather the autopilot is working or not. Chat witht the Feds at the FSDO that oversees the 135 operator that you are referring to so you can see their opinion. Per our opspecs, we have SICs in Navajos and they log the time since they are properly training and our program is set up accordingly. They have to go by the same 14 and 8/10 requirements that the PICs have to go by.

Correct, but a little backwards. The FARs REQUIRE an SIC for 135 IFR Pax ops. The Op Spec allows you to fly Single Pilot with an approved autopilot.

 

[Fly High]

Correct, but a little backwards. The FARs REQUIRE an SIC for 135 IFR Pax ops. The Op Spec allows you to fly Single Pilot with an approved autopilot.

Correct, BUT! Can you fly PAX 135 without an autopilot that is operating and no SIC? NO, BUT you can fly PAX 135 with an SIC (provided the SIC has gone through the required FAA training and the opspecs state that SIC is allowed) regardless of weather or not that autopilot is working So, with that being said, I am NOT backwards. You are just saying the same thing different.

 

[pgcfii2002]

You can log PIC on the Part 91, non revenue legs assuming you are qualified (ME), current and such.

 

[mike1mc]

and the opspecs state that SIC is allowed)

Not arguing, we are saying the exact same thing, just wanted to clarify one thing. The FAR (135.101 and 135.105c) says you need to have the SIC, the Op Spec (A015) allows you to deviate from the FAR. The deviation should also be listed in Op Spec paragraph A005.

§ 135.101 Second in command required under IFR.
Except as provided in §135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

§ 135.105 Exception to second in command requirement: Approval for use of autopilot system.
(c) The Administrator issues an amendment to the operations specifications authorizing the use of an autopilot system, in place of a second in command, if—

From the A015 Op Spec:

"The certificate holder is authorized to use the aircraft and its autopilot system listed below, in IFR operations, in lieu of a required second-in-command provided the following provisions are met...."​