Logging SIC in Pilatus?

dueguard1

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How would someone log SIC, in A Pilatus(PC-12), given this is a single pilot aircraft? Just curious?
 

h25b

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You can't log SIC to my knowledge unless for some reason you didn't have an autopilot and it was operated under FAR 135 ... Otherwise the only person that could log anything would be the actual PIC..

Listen... Just don't do it. If you really have to find some loophole in the regs. to log a flight it's not worth the trouble of logging it.
 

Flying Illini

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If you actually fly, you can log PIC, otherwise, all you get from being in the right seat is knowledge.
 

FlyFlyFly

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Log all the SIC you want. I would put it in your book as G-V time though.

If you are going to stretch, make it work for you...
 

100-1/2

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FAR 135 w/ inoperative autopilot; in commuter operation, with Captain less than 100 hours PIC in make/model, during Category II Operations. AND, only while holding current 135.293.

135.99b
135.101
135.105a
135.111
135.245
135.293a,b,d,e,f
 

some_dude

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Does 135.151 (CVR required for more than 6 seats) apply? The wording is rather vague:

FAR 135.151 said:
No person may operate a multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration of six or more and for which two pilots are required by certification or operating rules unless it is equipped with an approved cockpit voice recorder

So, is that multiengine or turbine-powered airplane or is it multiengine turbine powered airplane?

I'm guessing it is multiengine turbine-powered, in which case it would not apply to the Pilatus, but that's just a guess.
 

PC12Cowboy

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hmmm do you have a high altitude endorsement...cause you CAN"T log PC12 or anything else that goes high without it..PIC that is..LOL
 

onthebeach

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A Common Misconception

>>hmmm do you have a high altitude endorsement...cause you CAN"T log PC12 or anything else that goes high without it..PIC that is..LOL<<

Yes, you can log PIC in a PC12 without a high-altitude endorsement, provided you hold at least a private pilot single-engine land certificate...and an instrument rating, if the flight is IFR...for any flight time during which you are the sole manipulator of the controls.

However, you may not ACT as the PIC...and there is a difference...of said PC12 unless you have the high-altitude endorsement.

Also, you may log SIC time in an aircraft that requires only 1 pilot if the PIC is wearing a view-limiting device and practicing instrument flight in VFR conditions, and you are the safety pilot, with at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings...and if required, a type rating.

The references are FAR 61.51 and 91.109. These questions frequently come up and are often disputed, but you can read all about it at www.propilot.com.

Don't ever log time incorrectly or pad a logbook...but also don't ever miss a chance to log flight time when you can.
 

dueguard1

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h25b said:
You can't log SIC to my knowledge unless for some reason you didn't have an autopilot and it was operated under FAR 135 ... Otherwise the only person that could log anything would be the actual PIC..

Listen... Just don't do it. If you really have to find some loophole in the regs. to log a flight it's not worth the trouble of logging it.

The reason why I was asking is because a Fractional called Plane Sense operates an all Pilatus fleet, and I'm wondering how their new FO's log their time???
If anyone has info please answer?
 

AV8R4

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Planesense

I could be wrong but I think that Plane Sense operates under Part 91 Subpart K which requires two crew members. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

FlyFlyFly

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I can not find anything in 91 K that refers to the operation of single engine aircraft requiring only one pilot needing a second pilot.

I would recommend that anyone that tries to log anything but PIC time in a Pilatus PC12 should wear a fireproof suit to the job interview that they have for their next job. They will need it when their logbook is reviewed.
 

FlyFlyFly

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What if a second crewmember is required in the company ops specs to operate a pc-12?

What if the op specs do require it?

What reg in Part 135 would support logging SIC time in a single pilot, single engine aircraft?

There are only 4 provisions I can find:

1) For Category II Operations... doubt the PC12 is certified for it.

2) If you have 10 seats or more stuffed in the back.

3) For those flights with a PIC with less than 100 hours in make and model.

4) For operations in IFR without an operating autopilot.

So there they are. That is all I can find. Out of the four, there are none that any US operator would operate under, so the likelihood of there being loggable SIC time with a job as an FO on a PC12 is so remote as to be unimaginable.

There is no regard in the regs for op specs requiring an SIC for a SINGLE ENGINE AIRPLANE CERTIFIED FOR ONE PILOT.

If there is, then please let me know where to find it.
 
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prpjt

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§ 135.101 Second in command required under IFR.

Except as provided in §135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

135.105 is an exception that must be applied for. If you do not have the exception you must have 2 pilots in a 172 flying pax IFR.

Even if you apply for and recieve the exception in your OPs Spec, if the PIC has less than 100 hours in Make and Model you must have 2 pilots regardless of aircraft certification, if you fly pax IFR.

There's more but I type slow.

I see you were typing faster than me on your edit. Here is the long and short of it.

If you apply for and recieve a 135.105 exception, there is nothing in the regulation that prohibits you from using a qualified SIC in an operation that would otherwise require one.
 
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FlyFlyFly

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there is nothing in the regulation that prohibits you from using a qualified SIC

No, there is no prohibition of using one. There is no requirement for one. I know of no turboprop operator that does not have 135.105 approval in their op specs.

Again, this goes back to logging SIC in a single engine airplane that requires one pilot.

There are only four ways to do it where it is recognized, loggable, SIC time. Under Part 91, K or otherwise, there is no provision for it.

One may log time any way they want. For the application for ratings and certificates, this would not be legal time.

I would also argue that future employers would seriously question the time, as there is no need for a second pilot in this airplane from my perspective.
 

prpjt

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FlyFlyFly said:
No, there is no prohibition of using one. There is no requirement for one. I know of no turboprop operator that does not have 135.105 approval in their op specs.

Again, this goes back to logging SIC in a single engine airplane that requires one pilot.

There are only four ways to do it where it is recognized, loggable, SIC time. Under Part 91, K or otherwise, there is no provision for it.

One may log time any way they want. For the application for ratings and certificates, this would not be legal time.

I would also argue that future employers would seriously question the time, as there is no need for a second pilot in this airplane from my perspective.

It really is a shame that in the future there will be a lot of young pilots turned away for having perfectly legitimate time in their books, turned away by folks that don't understand the regs.

The requirement for a second pilot is established by 135.101. That does not go away when you get a 35.105 exception to the rule. If you don't believe me here is an excerpt of a 1992 FAA LEGAL OPINION that may explain it better.


Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots
 

Mr. Irrelevant

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There are only four ways to do it where it is recognized, loggable, SIC time. Under Part 91, K or otherwise, there is no provision for it.

I believe part 91K requires a PIC and an SIC regardless of the aircraft utilized.

Mr. I.
 

HMR

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FWIW- I know the CP's at a couple of "dream job" PT.91 Dept's. None of them put much value on SIC time in a Pilatus, King Air, CJ or other "single pilot" aircraft, regardless of the regs.

YMMV.
 
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