Logging PIC time

[hogdriver00]

Looking for an interpretation to part 61 about logging PIC time. Here is the question. A flight department hires someone without a type rating in their airplane but allows the pilot to fly in the left seat with a flight instructor prior to attending initial. Insurance issues aside, can this pilot log the time as PIC? It’s a jet so it requires a type rating.

My thought is that 61.51(e)(1)(iii) and the FAR 1 definition of PIC applies and the answer is no but the other opinion I’ve heard is that the student pilot section applies because the pilot is seeking the type rating eventually.

What’s the right answer?

 

[midlifeflyer]

What student pilot section? If you're talking about 61.51(e)4, better read it again.

 

[hogdriver00]

PIC

That's my point sort of. Does 61.51e4 apply to someone with a private or commercial cert.? My thought is no.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It doesn't. A private or commercial pilot is not a student pilot.

But it wouldn't make any difference if it did apply. That's why I suggested re-reading the regulation.

==============================
A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part;
and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
==============================

How would that help a student pilot log PIC in a jet with an instructor on board?

 

[varicam]

Does the pilot in question have a solo endorsement for the aircraft and is he/she flying solo in it? I'm guessing no, which makes the student question irrelevant. BTW, a general rule of thumb in pilot certification is that you never lose privileges by gaining a higher level of certificate. Therefore, if a student can do something, so can an ATP. However, in all cases a pilot who is not flying solo cannot log PIC time unless all regulatory requirements are met, including being properly rated.

 

[hogdriver00]

PIC

Midlife. That's exactly how I read it as well. Just looking to confirm it. The instructor part has no impact.

You can't log PIC time in an aircraft that requires a type rating unless you have said rating.

 

[Flymach2]

Hi...

Perhaps this Legal Interpretation will help.

Regards

Dear Mr. Ewing:

Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, concerning pilot in command time.

In your letter you request a copy of a "FAA Formal Opinion dated May 8, 1990, which deals with the logging of Pilot in command time." You also raise an additional question and comment which concern Part 61.51(c)(2)(i) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

Your question concerning Part 61.51(c)(2)(i) centers on the sentence "for which the pilot is rated." You ask "If the airplane in question requires a type rating (for example, KC-135 or B-707), does a pilot have to possess the type rating for that aircraft before he can log PIC time during that portion of the flight during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls? Or, to the contrary, are possession of a private pilot certificate and merely being the sole manipulator of the controls sufficient to log PIC time in that aircraft?"

Under section 61.51(c)(2)(i), a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that pilot is rated. "Rated", as used under section 61.51(c)(2)(i), refers to the category, class, and type as appropriate. Therefore, pilots must be appropriately rated for the aircraft, as the term is defined above, before they may log PIC time under Part 61. The possession of a private pilot certificate and merely being the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft is not necessarily sufficient to log PIC time.

In addition to your question, you also make the comment that, "The second part of 61.51(c)(2)(i) in question concerns logging PIC time '...when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification...' It would appear that a pilot, although not in possession of the type certificate for that aircraft, could 'act' as pilot in command (during the portion of the flight that he/she is the sole manipulator of the controls) and therefore log PIC time for that portion of the flight."

Under section 61.51(c)(2)(i), concerning the logging of PIC time, the sentence "when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification..." does not mean that a pilot, not in possession of the type certificate for that aircraft, can nonetheless act as PIC during the portion of the flight that he is the sole manipulator of the controls and therefore log PIC time for that portion of the flight.
I hope this satisfactorily answers your questions and concerns.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

 

[midlifeflyer]

Perhaps this Legal Interpretation will help.

Here's the real problem with the regulations. Even when they are written in pretty clear language (for a regulation), we still end up needing FAA Legal to repeat it.

And not just once. Heck, FAA Legal said "'Rating' as used in that section refers to the rating in categories, classes, and types" at least 23 years ago! And it =still= generates arguments.

 

[Flymach2]

Originally posted by midlifeflyer
Here's the real problem with the regulations. Even when they are written in pretty clear language (for a regulation), we still end up needing FAA Legal to repeat it.

Hi...

....and sometimes the Interpretation isn't as obvious as we would like....

Regards

 

[avbug]

Logging issues aside, one may act as pilot in command of an aircraft for which one is not rated, including an aircraft requiring a type rating, under appropriate circumstances...and do it for hire.

 

[de Pez]

The distinction is the difference between being rated in the aircraft (appropriate category, class), and "ACTING" as PIC for logging purposes. I can "act" like anyone, and often do, however someone not rated in an aircraft (707) would not log PIC in that aircraft, even if the sole manipulator of the controls.