Logging PIC time after Private

[alvin]

One more time guys...

Once I've got my private (ASEL), and then fly a new aircraft check out with an instructor (also basic single engine) to be able to rent that plane, IS that time PIC, Dual recieved or both??

What about instrument training under simulated conditions. I've done all my instrument hours with an instructor instead of safety pilot (he's a friend, and we fly together all the time anyway). When we file an instrument flight, or fly IMC, I know he is PIC, but what about the other???

Thanks

 

[JCJ]

if you have a private or greater certificate, you may log any time you are the "sole manipulator of the controls" in category and class (i.e. ASEL) as PIC time. note that "logging PIC time" is not the same as "acting as PIC"

there are often times where you may log PIC time but might not be the PIC. there are also a few circumstances where you might be the PIC but not log PIC time

go to www.propilot.com and see Doc's FAR forum - he has an excellent discussion of this topic

 

[Booker]

Once I've got my private (ASEL), and then fly a new aircraft check out with an instructor (also basic single engine) to be able to rent that plane, IS that time PIC, Dual recieved or both??

Just to add quickly to what JCJ said, this would be a case where you could legally log both PIC and dual received. However, if you plan on an airline career, know that most applications define PIC time as that time during which you signed for or were ultimately responsible for the aircraft. So while you could legally log the PIC time, it probably wouldn't fall into the airlines' defintion of "PIC."

 

[Flymach2]

Hi...

First, you may log PIC as a student pilot......the stipulations are listed in 61.51(e)(4).

The scenario you mention about getting checked out in an aircraft for the purpose of rental can be deceiving. Here's why.

Assuming you have "X" number of hours in a Cessna 172 in which you have done all your Private training. You pass your checkride and now you are a Private Pilot with ASEL category and class.

The following week you travel to another FBO and want to rent their Piper Warrior, of which you have zero time in. It is an ASEL and you can legally log the check out flight as PIC, but with zero time in that aircraft the FBO will probably require you to have a few hours of "training" in that model to satisfy their insurance requirements. So essentially you will be receiving training and you can/should log it as dual received as well as PIC.

When training under simulated instrument conditions with a flight instructor, you may log PIC and dual received.

It should be noted that if you indicate you have received training in your logbook, there should be an instructors' endorsement along with a description of the training given according to 61.51(h).

If your safety pilot is not an instructor, you may log PIC and your safety pilot will be acting as PIC provided you are following the regulations set forth in 91.109.

Regards

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging time

You can log time in any aircraft in which you are rated as PIC time.

In other words, you learn to fly in a 150 and take your Private practical in it. You then decide to move up to the big time (!) and decide to rent a 172, in which you have no time. You hold an airplane single-engine land rating. Your checkout pilot (instructor) should enter it in your logbook under total time, single-engine, PIC and, perhaps, dual received (I would enter it as dual received because you have no time in the type - more for the insurance company than for anything else.).

Now, let's say you really decide to move up to the big time and want to rent an Arrow. Notwithstanding that you have to complete your high-performance and/or complex checkout and be endorsed therefor, that time would still be logged as total time, PIC, dual received (because you don't have your high-performance/complex checkout yet), and single-engine. Some people like to set up a separate column in their logbooks for high-performance and/or complex. The reason why you'd still get PIC is because you are still rated as an airplane single-engine land pilot.

One final example: You've moved up to the big leagues. You've left all that puny single-engine nonsense behind and have earned your multi. You earned your multi in a Seminole. Now, you want to check out in a Baron. That would be logged as total time, multi, PIC, and, probably, as dual received. Some people might still log it additionally as high performance and/or complex.

Hope that helps.

 

[maverick_fp00]

What about this:

You have your Private Single and you get your Private Multi Addon in a Twin Comanche (160hp a side) - not high performance. Now you fly a Navajo - (350hp a side) - high performance, but you don't have you high performance sign-off, but the guy who is really the captain obviously has his high performance sign-off and has been to Simcom, etc... Can I log that time as PIC when I'm flying it even though I don't have my HP Signoff - because he's in the plane and he's rated?

 

[maverick_fp00]

one more thing...

you have a private pilot single-engine and multiengine land... when you do your checkride for the commercial in a 152 (for example) does that give you a multi commercial also? if not, what would be required to do in the multiengine for that commercial rating?

 

[Flymach2]

Hi...

maverick_fp00,

This is a Logging vs. Acting as PIC situation. You cannot act as PIC because you don't have the endorsement to do so in a high performance aircraft. Since you are rated in category and class you may, however, log the time in which you are the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC provided the other seat is occupied by an appropriately rated and endorsed pilot who will be acting as PIC. Why bother? It's easier to just get the endorsement.

Doing your Commercial ASEL will not enable you to have Commercial AMEL privileges. You will have to satisfy the requirements of 61.63 to add on the MEL class to your Commercial certificate.

Regards

 

[bobbysamd]

Certificate privileges

one more thing...

you have a private pilot single-engine and multiengine land... when you do your checkride for the commercial in a 152 (for example) does that give you a multi commercial also? if not, what would be required to do in the multiengine for that commercial rating?

Good question, actually.

For one thing, for initial Commercial certification, you have to at least demonstrate so-called "complex" operations, i.e. controllable prop, flaps and retractable landing gear, in a so-called "complex" airplane, i.e. an aircraft with these items. If you want, you can demonstrate the commercial maneuvers in a "simple" single. So, you cannot take the entire Commercial checkride in a 152.

In any event, if you take and pass the Commercial in a single, you would hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with Airplane Single-Engine Land privileges, and have Private privileges for Airplane Multiengine Land.

If you held a Private Certificate with and Instrument rating and both single and multiengine privileges, and, barring any "VFR only" restriction on your multi, and, you get your Commercial in the single, you can still fly IFR in the multi, but only as a private pilot.

To have the Private multi privileges removed from your Commercial certificate, you would have to take a Commercial practical in the multi.

Finally, as I understand the rules change from a few years ago, although you received your "complex" signoff, say, in a 320 hp total Twin Commanche (160 hp a side), you cannot act as PIC in the Navajo without a "high performance" signoff. This is because the aircraft in question does not have an engine of 200 hp or more (although it has 320 total hp ). That is different from several years ago, when a "high peformance" signoff meant either an airplane with an engine with more than 200 hp total or an airplane with flaps, controllable prop and a retractable landing gear. In other words, let's say you knew someone with a Stearman (a classic biplane with fixed gear and, I believe, a 450 hp radial) or a Cessna 195 (a classic fixed-gear high-wing with a similar radial) who was willing to give you a high performance signoff in his airplane, you could recieve it without demonstrating flap and gear operation. "Complex" airplane was not in the official FAA lexicon in those days. Which meant that my 360 total hp Seminole trainees (180 hp a side) received a "high performance airplane" signoff from me prior to going for their Private multis, and which covered controllable prop and retractable gear as well as the horsepower requirement. In my .02 opinion, the rules change makes no sense. But, that's only my .02.

Hope the above explanation helps.

 

[maverick_fp00]

Well the reason I asked about doing the commercial checkride in a 152 and seeing if you would get commercial privileges in a multi is because I heard somewhere that if you have a multi private already when taking your single commercial then you won't have to show proficiency in a complex airplane.

 

[bobbysamd]

Private multi v. Commercial multi practicals

The Private Multi and Commercial multi rides are separate events -although, from a truly practical standpoint, they are virtually alike. I haven't looked at a PTS for either in years. I do remember that the standards for the Commercial are tighter, especially for such things as maximum performance landings and the airwork. Also, you need to exhibit more in-depth knowlege for the oral.

If you have a good instructor and you're willing to work to higher standards during your Private Multi ride, you won't need much review for the Commercial ride. You will have to study more for the oral.

Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your training.