Logging PIC jet time

[Beetle007]

I think the FAA general Council letters are pretty clear about the spirit of the law. They tell us how to log it legally. If anything, I think the "spirit" of the law is to log it according to FAA standards, but in a manner that can be destinguishable if desired. PIC obtained while manipulating the contols should probably be destinguishable from PIC obtained while ACTING as PIC. Anyone who doesnt log flight time according to FAA standards is a victim of their own ignorance.

It would disturb me if an airline frowned upon logging it according to FAA standards, as long as each type of flight time was destinguishable for their own interpretation. To expect anything else, would be an insult to the FAA and Pilots who truly seek an understand of the regulations.

 

[freightdogfred]

Dude, you are reading into the regs what you want to as it suits your needs to log 121 PIC..... The intent of logging 121 pic is when you check out as captain, you begin logging your time as PIC. Your sematics as "manipulator of the controls" while being type-rated allows you to log the time as PIC is absurd.... But hell. log it if you want to. Log some SR-71 time if you want to as well.
If some Feds interpretation suits you fine. Just remember when you show up at an interview they will ask for your training records, and if you show a bunch of 121 PIC time in a Parker P-51, yet no training records to support it (captain's sim check and IOE paperwork) you're going to look pretty silly....Perhaps you can pull out all your documentation that has been provided on this thread to support your position but airlines have their own idea what constitutes as PIC. Good luck, what ever you decide to log.

 

[Timebuilder]

It would disturb me if an airline frowned upon logging it according to FAA standards, as long as each type of flight time was destinguishable for their own interpretation. To expect anything else, would be an insult to the FAA and Pilots who truly seek an understand of the regulations.

More than one airline guy has told me to use the FAR Part 1 standard for PIC time. For instance, I can legally log PIC time as sole manipulator of a King Air. However, under the part 1 definition I am not PIC. I can't sign out or rent the aircraft, and this is reflected by my current inability to be insured by anyone for the PIC position in the airplane. Same situation in the Lear, where I DO have expereince.

I think what this comes down to is really the difference between things that you CAN do versus things that you SHOULD do as a wise, informed person.

Having a special column for Airbus PIC time might make for a humorus moment for a low time pilot at an interview, but I wouldn't point to it with a straight face and intone "Yes, I do have PIC time in the Airbus".

As for the term "spirit" of the regulations? The "spirit" of any recording of values is one of acccuracy and faithfulness to the events. In accounting, this is a basic principal of ethics, and the reason that Anderson Consulting fell so far and so hard after Enron. In logging your time, everyone expects young pilots to have a few hours of PIC time where they are logging the time as permitted under part 61. As your experience grows, I think this kind of PIC logging becomes more questionable, as if the pilot is somehow unaware of the importance of the Part 1 PIC definition, and its importance to the industry. Truthfully, I find the Chief Counsel letter shown here by LazyB to be a surprise. But then, a great many things done by government bodies are surprising and inexplicable.

Rather than letting the "letter" of the regulations be your guide, I'd say that the "spirt" of accuracy and faithfulness should be your appropriate guide in these matters.

 

[DitchDriver]

I logged NONE of my SIC training.

Are you serious? That's really odd. Was it in two pilot airplane? (I won't log it either if it was for SIC position in a 172).


Training flights were conducted under part 91 and if the airplane was certified for two pilots, then you were required to be there. Therefore you were allowed to log time under 61.51 (f)(2), see below.

In fact, 61.51 (a) requires that you log your training time. I agree, it is only for "certificate, rating, or flight review of this part" (1) and "recent flight experience" (2). I think 61.55 (b)(2) requirement fits recent flight experience category.

And for "common sense" logging, how do you explain to someone looking at your logbook that you started acting as SIC without any training logged? I am sure the company CYA'ed by having its own log of your training flights.

61.51:

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must
document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the
Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the
requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.


(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-
in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command
requirements of Sec. 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember
station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the
aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if
an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being
flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification
of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being
conducted.

 

[Timebuilder]

Training flights were conducted under part 91 and if the airplane was certified for two pilots, then you were required to be there. Therefore you were allowed to log time under 61.51 (f)(2), see below.

I was not yet qualified to serve as a required crewmember, and the training was permitted since the company had an FAA approved training program. I could not log the training as either PIC or SIC. As I mentioned above, I could have logged this simply as flight time, but I felt that since this undifferentiated time was being tracked by the company for all official purposes, there was no need to log it in my book.


The record of training was a separate set of documents, and the completion of the training was the completed 8410. I was not required to put any of the training in my logbook, and the check airman was not required to sign the logbook attesting to the training, since he did so on training documents.

I DO have copies of all the documents.

 

[Beetle007]

Ok, I think people misunderstood my purpose for understanding this issue. I have found that All flight instructors have different opinions regarding flight time and how to log it. In order for me to give my students their moneys worth, I need to be able to have them log time according to FAA standards, and provide accurate information about logging flight time in the future. Some Instructors don't let their students log PIC during:

1. Instrument training in actual instrument conditions
2. training for an endorsement
3. training when the student isnt current via Flight Reviews and Landings

The reason Flight Instructors don't allow their students to log this PIC time, is because they have a lack of knowledge regarding this issue. Therefore, they "play it safe" and have their students log it conservatively. Students have paid for your services, and you should allow them to get the full potential out of it.

After doing all my research, I have come to the following opinion.

1. You can log all flight time strictly according to FAA legal
interpretations and FAA Regulations in your logbooks

2. Make sure all questionable flight time is separate from commonly accepted flight time. It might even be desirable to have a seperate logbook for Legal flight time that isnt generally accepted. That way airlines dont laugh when going through your logbook. However, it is still benefitial to keep track of ALL legal flight time because you never know when it might come in handy. It might one day allow you to qualify for something that would not have been possible with your strictly "industry acceptable" flight time. However, if you think it is unlikely this would ever be a scenario, feel free to only log "industry acceptable" flight time

3. On all Applications for pilot employment (or other similar reasons), only provide flight time that you believe will be accepted by the company in which you are applying to. In other words, use good judgment in determining what type of flight time the company intends you to provide on the application. To provide anything else borders on "fraud."

Cheers,

 

[bobbysamd]

Letter of the law v. the spirit of the law

I think what this comes down to is really the difference between things that you CAN do versus things that you SHOULD do as a wise, informed person . . . . As for the term "spirit" of the regulations? The "spirit" of any recording of values is one of acccuracy and faithfulness to the events . . . .

(emphasis added)

That's the point I've been trying to make during some of the recent discussions on logging time, in particular the issue of a safety pilot logging SIC as opposed to PIC.

Of course, everyone is starved for certain types of flight time at various stages of a career, and people will stretch every possible point to be able to log it. Of course, a logbook is a record of flight time. But it is much more than that. A logbook is a diary and chronicle of one's overall flying experience. That's what will be looked at during the interview.

 

[stillaboo]

In other words, use good judgment in determining what type of flight time the company intends you to provide on the application. To provide anything else borders on "fraud."

So, if even YOU think it's fraud, then why do you want to put it in your logbook, even if it's legal?

The issue here is you're a CFI and you're asking the question as if you want the CFI answer; 'if it's legal, it must be right'. CFI's don't command 'Buses. 121 typed ATP CA's do (incidentally, these are the same guys who will be looking over your logbook for insurance and airline interviews). That's why you're unhappy with the legal answer not being the answer we're all siding with.

If you want to log this time, I'd keep 2 log books. 1 with time that is only for your own personal ego stroking (Part 61 legal), the other with time that is actually relevant (the 'spirit' of Part 1) to the rest of the world.

-Boo!

 

[Beetle007]

I don't think pilots should keep two logbooks for ego stroking purposes. That is a rather condescending remark. They should keep ALL legal time recorded for "What If" purposes. And yes, two logbooks is probably the smartest way to do it. At an interveiw, you dont want them questioning the validity of your flight time. That being said, I 100 percent agree that it is more practical to ONLY log industry acceptable flight time in a single logbook. It is easier and more practical, but should result from intential purposes and not ignorance.

If you want me to name all the "what if" scenarios I have actually seen occur, we would be here for a while. You probably wouldnt even believe half the stuff I have seen legally happen. A couple times the insurance companies freaked out, but they eventually came to an agreement.

So "What if" you get laid off from your regional and your buddy wants you to fly for his charter operation. But, the insurance company requires 3000 jet PIC or something similar to fly as a captain. And, "what if" they are willing to accept your legally logged PIC time during your tenure as a type rated FO at the regional, even though most Airlines don’t intend for you to provide this time on your application.

Also, many commercial students (being taught by CFIs like myself,) will one day become the part 121 captains operating the larger equipment. When will they learn proper logging of flight time? Via cockpit chit chat and peronal opinions? or should they have already learned this information during their primary commercial training from their original CFIs? I don’t want my students asking their PART 121 Indoc instructor how to log PIC time....do you? If they have to ask this question, I failed as a flight instructor.

When I asked the original question, the proper answer should have been:

"Yes it is legal according to FAR's, but would most likely be frowned upon if used on applications or discussed during an interview..and isnt worth the risk of logging."

But, we obviously didn't have a good understanding of logging flight time.


Cheers

 

[flx757]

If you want me to name all the "what if" scenarios I have actually seen occur, we would be here for a while.

I have a couple--

What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?
What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?

 

[The Man]

The answer to this question and virtually any other aviation related question can be found in this great new book I picked up called “EVERYTHING EXPLAINED for the Professional Pilot”.

If everyone on this board had a copy, there would be no reason to post a question!

Check it out at www.Aviation-Press.com

You can view dozens of excerpt pages for FREE.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Beetle you have it right. Don't let these guys make you second guess yourself. Fill out your log book according to the FARS (which I think you have an excellent grasp of), and fill out applications according to the desire of the company (ie. PIC time meaning ACTING PIC)
You cant go wrong.
I mean in this case lets just say your log books show 2000hrs PIC time and on an application where they want to only see FAR part 1 PIC time you list 1950hrs PIC... big deal.
Its both legal and honest.