Logging Long Haul SIC/IO Time

[jumppilot]

I tried to search, but no luck on a substantial answer...

I've heard many different answers for this:

If I am a required crewmember (not CA) of a 3 member crew (CA, FO, IO), how do I log the time?

I'm under the impression I log it all as SIC since I'm a required crewmember (ie: the flight doesn't go without me), and that is the consensus among my peers.

A 10 hour flight to Europe, I log it all as SIC, regardless if I'm the designated FO or IO, or in the seat. With that said, I don't log actual or approaches unless I'm flying.

Thoughts?

 

[HA25]

FWIW, I log all my time as SIC... sure I'm PIC typed.. but the PIC, even if he's in bed, is still the signed PIC on the plane. I also have no problem logging the time while I'm in the bunk.. I'm still required crew, and on duty.

 

[jumppilot]

That's my thought exactly.

I don't log PIC time, since we learned since day one that a CA can log PIC even when he is sleeping.

 

[Fedora]

It depends on the flight rules. If you are flying part 121 rules you can't log PIC time unless you sign for the bird.

 

[HA25]

It depends on the flight rules. If you are flying part 121 rules you can't log PIC time unless you sign for the bird.

Hey fedora... how did recurrent go? Are you a still PIC?

 

[Fedora]

Why? You expecting me to bust or something?
Still PIC this week. Recurrent starts Tuesday so a little while longer to enjoy my left seat eh?

 

[HA25]

Why? You expecting me to bust or something?
Still PIC this week. Recurrent starts Tuesday so a little while longer to enjoy my left seat eh?

Na.. just busting on ya.. sitting here with GM in Shanghai drinking our 6th cup of coffee and board, so what else is there to do?

 

[TheBaron]

I tried to search, but no luck on a substantial answer...

I've heard many different answers for this:

If I am a required crewmember (not CA) of a 3 member crew (CA, FO, IO), how do I log the time?

I'm under the impression I log it all as SIC since I'm a required crewmember (ie: the flight doesn't go without me), and that is the consensus among my peers.

A 10 hour flight to Europe, I log it all as SIC, regardless if I'm the designated FO or IO, or in the seat. With that said, I don't log actual or approaches unless I'm flying.

Thoughts?

Aren't you actually only required for that portion beyond 8 hours?

We log 2/3 of the flight time when acting as an RFO (IO, IRO) with a 3 member crew and 1/2 of the block when acting as part of a 4 member crew. Apparently our POI/FSDO has decided that is what is acceptable. Of course if you ask two different Feds, you're likely to get two different answers.

 

[TheBaron]

I tried to search, but no luck on a substantial answer...

I've heard many different answers for this:

If I am a required crewmember (not CA) of a 3 member crew (CA, FO, IO), how do I log the time?

I'm under the impression I log it all as SIC since I'm a required crewmember (ie: the flight doesn't go without me), and that is the consensus among my peers.

A 10 hour flight to Europe, I log it all as SIC, regardless if I'm the designated FO or IO, or in the seat. With that said, I don't log actual or approaches unless I'm flying.

Thoughts?

§ 121.507 Flight time limitations: Three pilot crews: airplanes.

top (a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot—
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of three pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of three pilot for more than 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of three pilots may be on duty for more than 18 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19218, Dec. 31, 1964; 30 FR 3639, Mar. 19, 1965, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996]
§ 121.509 Flight time limitations: Four pilot crews: airplanes.

top (a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot—
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of four pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of four pilots for more than 16 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of four pilots may be on duty for more than 20 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19218, Dec. 31, 1964; 30 FR 3639, Mar. 19, 1965, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996]


In a nutshell:
You can only be on "flight deck duty" for 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours. Using a relief officer allows you to be "aloft in an airplane" for 12 or 16 hours, depending on crew of 3 or 4 pilots. Logging 10 hours in a 24 hour period is OK if you are flying under Part 91 (or Part 135 2-pilot crew) but not under Part121.

 

[transpac]

It depends on the flight rules. If you are flying part 121 rules you can't log PIC time unless you sign for the bird.

Do you have a reference for this? My Part 61 makes no mention of Part 121 vs. any other part in regard to logging pilot time.

 

[jumppilot]

§ 121.507 Flight time limitations: Three pilot crews: airplanes.

top (a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot—
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of three pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of three pilot for more than 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of three pilots may be on duty for more than 18 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19218, Dec. 31, 1964; 30 FR 3639, Mar. 19, 1965, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996]
§ 121.509 Flight time limitations: Four pilot crews: airplanes.

top (a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot—
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of four pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of four pilots for more than 16 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of four pilots may be on duty for more than 20 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19218, Dec. 31, 1964; 30 FR 3639, Mar. 19, 1965, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996]


In a nutshell:
You can only be on "flight deck duty" for 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours. Using a relief officer allows you to be "aloft in an airplane" for 12 or 16 hours, depending on crew of 3 or 4 pilots. Logging 10 hours in a 24 hour period is OK if you are flying under Part 91 (or Part 135 2-pilot crew) but not under Part121.

So how can the CA log PIC for the whole flight? Remember, the CA can log PIC even when he is sleeping!

I also believe that while the flight deck crewmemember isn't schedule for more than 8 hours (hence having a relief pilot), it doesn't mean he can't log the time.

 

[HA25]

guys, you're all mixing up what the FAR's say vs what the airlines say..

the FAR's indeed say 8 hours in a 24 hour period, and there is no 121 vs 91 or 135 def.. BUT.. even though under the FAR's the person who is the "Sole manipulator of the controls" can "legally" log PIC.. it is the guy who is sighed for the airplane that is ALWAYS the PIC as far as your next airline interview..

Fedora. I'm curious, when two CA's go out on a heavy crew.. who is PIC? Does it indeed alternate? or is the senior CA always assigned as PIC?

 

[TheBaron]

So how can the CA log PIC for the whole flight? Remember, the CA can log PIC even when he is sleeping!

I also believe that while the flight deck crewmemember isn't schedule for more than 8 hours (hence having a relief pilot), it doesn't mean he can't log the time.

The same way a ships Captain takes the hit when something happens and he is in his cabin asleep. The Captain of record is responsible for the entire flight and can therefore log it.

As far as logging flight time when you aren't on flight deck duty, do you also log flight time when you deadhead? That's what you are basically doing; deadheading aboard a flight to act as a pilot on flight deck duty for some portion of the flight. We did the same thing under Part 135 to stretch our range. Put two qualified pilots on board operating as single pilots. One would fly for 6+ hours, we would stop for fuel, and then the other would fly for 6+ hours. We were both on duty, and therefore limited to 14 hours, but we could get beyond the 8-hour single pilot/10-hour two pilot flight time rule.
Sounds like you have already rationalized how you plan on logging flight time so why ask for a regulatory reference? Do whatever you want. It only matters when you have to explain your actions to "the man".

 

[jumppilot]

As far as logging flight time when you aren't on flight deck duty, do you also log flight time when you deadhead? That's what you are basically doing; deadheading aboard a flight to act as a pilot on flight deck duty for some portion of the flight. We did the same thing under Part 135 to stretch our range. Put two qualified pilots on board operating as single pilots. One would fly for 6+ hours, we would stop for fuel, and then the other would fly for 6+ hours. We were both on duty, and therefore limited to 14 hours, but we could get beyond the 8-hour single pilot/10-hour two pilot flight time rule.
Sounds like you have already rationalized how you plan on logging flight time so why ask for a regulatory reference? Do whatever you want. It only matters when you have to explain your actions to "the man".

Baron,

1) You are not deadheading when you are assigned to the flight. If was was assigned a DH only to pick up the turn at the other end, I would not log it. However, if the flight can not leave without 3+ crewmembers, are you really deadheading?

Again, I'm not talking about what happens in the single-pilot 135 world, but rather 121 long haul where 3 crewmmembers are indeed required crew.

2) We are not discussing single-pilot 135 operations. Being assigned an FO or IO, you are indeed assigned flight deck duties. After all, all crewmembers are on the release as required crew...I've never seen a flight where DH'ders in the back were listed on the release.

Your 135 logic is flawed. "Stop for gas and the other guy flies the next leg."

I'm talking about the same leg.

 

[Junkflyer]

We occasionally fly double crew and I only log the time I actually sit in the seat.(I'm an Fo) Flight time is not a big deal a few hours here or there anyway so I don't want to push it, especially if it is questioned in a future interview.

 

[HA25]

CrewTrack which tracks our "flight time" and DH time, etc.. tallies flight time as when you're assigned as "Crew" and DH time as something else.... therefore if you're on a 3-man 10 hour leg, and one guy is not in the right seat for a large part of that flight, he still is accruing the same 10 hours of "flight time". All that 3rd man does is make the MD-11 into effectively a DC-10.. you don't see DC-10 pilots getting violated for flying more than 10 hours in a 24 hour period, do you?

 

[TheBaron]

Baron,

1) You are not deadheading when you are assigned to the flight. If was was assigned a DH only to pick up the turn at the other end, I would not log it. However, if the flight can not leave without 3+ crewmembers, are you really deadheading?

(1)Again, I'm not talking about what happens in the single-pilot 135 world, but rather 121 long haul where 3 crewmmembers are indeed required crew.

2) We are not discussing single-pilot 135 operations. (2)Being assigned an FO or IO, you are indeed assigned flight deck duties. After all, all crewmembers are on the release as required crew...I've never seen a flight where DH'ders in the back were listed on the release.

(3)Your 135 logic is flawed. "Stop for gas and the other guy flies the next leg."

I'm talking about the same leg.

(1) Which is why I quoted you the 121 supplemental reg.
I was using the 135 analogy to demonstrate that just because you are on an airplane and on duty, you are not necessarily on flight deck duty.
(2) But not more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period per the regulations.
(3) Once again...just stated to demonstrate the point that being on duty aboard an aircraft is not the same as being on flight deck duty and logging flight time.

And to answer your last part that has now been "mysteriously" edited out, yes I am qualified to answer. I just finished a 12:40 leg from Paris to the PI as part of a 4 pilot crew. And for your info, I logged 1/2 of the block.
Like I said...you asked for opinions and I gave one with references to back it up. If you don't like my answer, keep fishing till you find one that justifies the decision you've already made.

 

[HA25]

And for your info, I logged 1/2 of the block.
Like I said...you asked for opinions and I gave one with references to back it up. If you don't like my answer, keep fishing till you find one that justifies the decision you've already made.

and how did your company log your flight time? For example what does your crew-track (or what ever system your company uses) say you "flew"...

in the end, you are a crew member, and whether resting, or acting at the controls, I think it's safe to say that all on-duty rules apply.. for example, after you finished your 1/2 of the flight, you can't go to the back and have a beer, as a DH pilot might be able to do if he took off his uniform.

 

[TheBaron]

CrewTrack which tracks our "flight time" and DH time, etc.. tallies flight time as when you're assigned as "Crew" and DH time as something else.... therefore if you're on a 3-man 10 hour leg, and one guy is not in the right seat for a large part of that flight, he still is accruing the same 10 hours of "flight time". All that 3rd man does is make the MD-11 into effectively a DC-10.. you don't see DC-10 pilots getting violated for flying more than 10 hours in a 24 hour period, do you?

Huh?!? The 3rd man on an MD-11 isn't comparable to a flight engineer.

 

[HA25]

Huh?!? The 3rd man on an MD-11 isn't comparable to a flight engineer.

No exactly, you're correct... but he allows for the company to dispatch the aircraft for longer than an 8 hour flight, as if there was an FE.. effectively that is what the IRO does, or you disagree?

There is really nothing requiring any pilot on the MD to rest during a 10 hour flight, so long as there are 3 on board, that's all the regs care about.

 

[TheBaron]

and how did your company log your flight time? For example what does your crew-track (or what ever system your company uses) say you "flew"...

in the end, you are a crew member, and whether resting, or acting at the controls, I think it's safe to say that all on-duty rules apply.. for example, after you finished your 1/2 of the flight, you can't go to the back and have a beer, as a DH pilot might be able to do if he took off his uniform.

Agreed, I can't have a beer because I am on duty still, not flight deck duty though. When I am sitting hotel stand-by, I'm on duty as well...can't drink a beer and not logging flight time. I think someone is confusing duty time and flight time.

How did my company log the time? 12:40 for pay (the important one), 14:25 for duty, and 6:20 for flight time.

 

[HA25]

you make some interesting points, but to be honest, and it may just be our POI, but we don't do this..

for example, we're required to have 100 hours of "flight time" after finishing the type rating or we have to return for more IOE.. this 100 hours is not defined as at the helm... just "assigned crew".. This is just another classic case of the FAA being vague. I for one don't know anyone who's interviewed at another airline (be it UPS, Fedex, Delta, or Cathy) that was presented with this interpretation when he showed them his log book with 10 and 12 hour flight days..

 

[HA25]

and again, you nor your POI has explained the legality of a CA logging 100% of the flight time of a 10 hour flight as PIC, when in fact at some point he (according to you) must rest.

There as to be a PIC on the plane, if under your interpretation, when the CA rest, that IRO (FO) then MUST log pic.

 

[TheBaron]

121.434
g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, pilot in command and second in command crewmembers must each acquire at least 100 hours of line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills (including operating experience required under paragraph (c) of this section) within 120 days after the satisfactory completion of:
(1) Any part of the flight maneuvers and procedures portion of either an airline transport pilot certificate with type rating practical test or an additional type rating practical test, or
(2) A §121.441 proficiency check.

Our POI has interpreted that to mean at the controls. You are correct about POI's. If you want 10 different answers, ask 10 different POI's.
I'm guessing you're over on the wrong side of the planet now, or you have a case of insomnia.

 

[TheBaron]

and again, you nor your POI has explained the legality of a CA logging 100% of the flight time of a 10 hour flight as PIC, when in fact at some point he (according to you) must rest.

There as to be a PIC on the plane, if under your interpretation, when the CA rest, that IRO (FO) then MUST log pic.

Actually I don't believe any of the crewmembers are on rest. They are all on duty, but limited to 8 hours of flight deck duty. Even if they choose to sleep in the back, they are still on duty.

 

[HA25]

121.434
g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, pilot in command and second in command crewmembers must each acquire at least 100 hours of line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills (including operating experience required under paragraph (c) of this section) within 120 days after the satisfactory completion of:
(1) Any part of the flight maneuvers and procedures portion of either an airline transport pilot certificate with type rating practical test or an additional type rating practical test, or
(2) A §121.441 proficiency check.

Our POI has interpreted that to mean at the controls. You are correct about POI's. If you want 10 different answers, ask 10 different POI's.
I'm guessing you're over on the wrong side of the planet now, or you have a case of insomnia.

yea.. sitting in Shanghai at the lounge attop the Hau Ting hotel wasting bandwidth and taking advantage of free beverages!

We've been here 3 days, leaving tomorrow early to DXB via a stop in MAA.. 3 man crew.. 1 CA.. now you've got me wondering how to log it!

 

[HA25]

Actually I don't believe any of the crewmembers are on rest. They are all on duty, but limited to 8 hours of flight deck duty. Even if they choose to sleep in the back, they are still on duty.

Well to be completely honest.. I do (in my notes section on my logbook) state whether I was assigned IRO or FO, whether I had a landing or not, etc.. so even though my "total" time accrues with the flight time, I don't per-se give the impression that it was all "FO" time. That is probably the best one can do in the interest of full disclosure.

With the CA being on Duty but asleep (as with any sleeping member), can he still log flight time and PIC time is the question?... I don't see how according to the interpretation your PIC presents. In theory, if he is REQUIRED to step away from the controls after 8 hours of flight time, he simple cannot log the entire flight, which leave the other FO (if type rated) to log it.. and I know nobody that does this.

We typically don't swap out FO and IRO mid leg.. one guys starts out the day as IRO and that's where he finishes it.

 

[TheBaron]

Sorry, had to step away to drink a couple or seven San Miguels.
Uhh...what was the question? I guess some of this also doesn't apply at all to flag carriers since their flight time limits are completely different.

I would think the PIC would log the entire flight as just that...PIC, but only log 8 hours towards total flight time (or 12 hours for flag carriers.) To be honest, I haven't logged a thing since I finished on the panel and I'm not looking for a different job. Maybe I'll ponder this all over a few more cold ones at the Blue Rock or Vasco's.

 

[HA25]

Sorry, had to step away to drink a couple or seven San Miguels.
Uhh...what was the question? I guess some of this also doesn't apply at all to flag carriers since their flight time limits are completely different.

I would think the PIC would log the entire flight as just that...PIC, but only log 8 hours towards total flight time (or 12 hours for flag carriers.) To be honest, I haven't logged a thing since I finished on the panel and I'm not looking for a different job. Maybe I'll ponder this all over a few more cold ones at the Blue Rock or Vasco's.

Good enough.. take care and don't have too many!

 

[jumppilot]

(1) Which is why I quoted you the 121 supplemental reg.
I was using the 135 analogy to demonstrate that just because you are on an airplane and on duty, you are not necessarily on flight deck duty.
(2) But not more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period per the regulations.
(3) Once again...just stated to demonstrate the point that being on duty aboard an aircraft is not the same as being on flight deck duty and logging flight time.

And to answer your last part that has now been "mysteriously" edited out, yes I am qualified to answer. I just finished a 12:40 leg from Paris to the PI as part of a 4 pilot crew. And for your info, I logged 1/2 of the block.
Like I said...you asked for opinions and I gave one with references to back it up. If you don't like my answer, keep fishing till you find one that justifies the decision you've already made.

It wasn't "mysteriously" edited out. After I wrote it, I realized it wasn't a nice thing to say, so I deleted it..And I checked out your profile and realized you were indeed qualified to to answer.

I do understand where you are getting the "8 hours in a 24 hour period" and will ask around using that as a conversation starter.

Thanks for the conversation.