Logging King Air 200 time?

[airludy]

I have a job as a crew member on a King Air 200. Its a part 91 operation and they require two pilots even though the airplane is a single pilot aircraft. I am not covered on the issurance so I cannot make flight by myself withouth the cheif pilot with me of course. Since it is part 91 I get to sit in the left seat very often and fly. I even do tons of flying from the right seat. My question is how will the regionals or corporations look at these hours?? I also have a flight instructing job. Right now I have about 800 hours with 250 mutil about 150 in the King Air 200. They way I look at it is that, I have gained much experience flying this aircraft.. Turbine, busy airspace, high altitude... I was amazed at how much I have been learning from this experience..More real world flying compared to instructing in my 172.. Could I please have some input on the vaule or this job and how the airlines and other companys will look at this.. Thank you

 

[Badger]

BE20 time

If you're the sole manipulator of the controls and multi-rated, you're ok to log PIC in the BE20 just as much as a Senecca. However...if the chief pilot is designated as PIC on paperwork if any, don't log it, there's only one PIC. You'll have to defend this time later by knowing this airplane inside and out if you do log PIC in it.

Do not however log any SIC time as a part91 operator as it's a single pilot airplane. If you're not required as part of a part 135 ops spec. this would not be legal.

Hope it helps, it's a messy subject.

 

[bobbysamd]

KingAir 200

I can't remember. Does a BE-200 require a type rating? Not that it really matters for the purpose of this discussion, except that if it does I'd be REALLY careful about logging the time.

Badger is dead on about how this is a messy subject.

 

[Speedtree]

This is a fairly common situation and its entirely up to you. The King Air 200 does not require a type rating nor two pilots. Part 135 with two pilot requirements you could log SIC but this is part 91 so the rules get gray.

I had a similar situation flying a conquest, which I now fly as captain. My way to log it was as dual received because the captain was an MEI, in my opinion this is the best way.

If you log PIC as the sole manipulator you must as previously mentioned be able to answer any and all questions about the aircraft by an interviewer. Know all the memory checklists (for emergency), systems etc. It's a shame but if you don't want to get into trouble later it's best not to log it as SIC or PIC but take the experience for what it is, experience. Hopefully the Captain is an instructor.

I fly in a two crew situation now and alternate trips. When I sit right seat I don't log anything so I lose out on about 1/2 of the turbine time I could have. I don't log dual anymore because I'm on the insurance and have been to FSI etc. In my mind it's the safest thing to do and the only regret I have is learning to be patient.

That's my take, lots of luck.

 

[Mad-dasher]

If you are sole manipulator of the controls log it as pic. When it's not your leg to fly log it as multi-turbine time but don't log the pic or sic row, just total time. You can explain this at an interview if they ask. All you have to do is log time according to the FARs and you cannot be faulted for your entries. Some people might not like the way you log time but you would be technically correct. Afterall, you won't get a chance to defend your entries if you don't get an interview due to lack of multi time.

 

[pilotyip]

Don't go there

Be careful with the BE-200 SIC time, it sounds like you have no formal training program, you have not taken a check ride and you are not on the insurance. You are basically a passenger in the front seat. Even thought you can legally log PIC, any recruiter is going to recognize you are not really the PIC. No one owning a 1M airplane lets people be PIC's without formal training.
You might be better off logging it as observer time and be straight forward with the recrutiter about the valuable expereince you got in the ride along program. To try and put one by on your resume to a recrutier could be the kiss of death. Possibly the CP is a CFMEI could give you dual which you could log. But what does 500 MEI dual look like on a resume?

 

[Viking]

If the BE-200 doesn't require a type rating you will certainly need a high altitude endorsement to fly as PIC. Also, if you have an MEI with 5 hours PIC in make and model, you can log it as PIC giving dual instruction under part 91. Just make sure the other guys logbook is endorsed as well. As a CFII you can give instrument instruction as well in an "airplane".
I think the problem arises when both of you log PIC. This shouldn't be a problem though if one of you holds a CFI for instrument-airplane or multi-engine land.
The only other way to log PIC in a single pilot aircraft is to be a safety pilot as required by the FAR's. In other words, someone has to be under the hood.

Note- I am not an expert on logging flight time. I am just trying to interpret the FAR's, which is no easy task.

By the way, FAR part 1 spells out the definition of Pilot in Command. I don't see it mentioning "sole manipulator of the controls".

 

[na265]

I agree with Speedtree. I did the same thing, in a 200, and logged it as dual received. I really did not know the AC, and was really recieving dual in it.

 

[A Squared]

Speed tree,

>>>.......this is part 91 so the rules get gray.

It doesn't get grey at all. If it's part 91 and it's a one pilot airplane, you're not legal to log SIC. It's about as black and white as it gets


Viking,

>>>>>>By the way, FAR part 1 spells out the definition of Pilot in Command. I don't see it mentioning "sole manipulator of the controls".

You're right, you won't, you will however see it
61.51(e) regarding logging of PIC time.


The there's a differnce betweedn ACTING as PIC and LOGGING PIC. You may log PIC when you are not actually acting as PIC.

Regards

 

[Huck]

I got 500 hours this way early in my career. The secret is to keep it in a seperate column under "Part 61 PIC." If a company doesn't specify, use the time. If (like FDX) they do specify the Part 1 definition, leave it out.

If you have the bucks it wouldn't hurt to go down to Simuflite or somewhere and go through King-Aire initial. That would help with what your trying to do.

Being unable to log Part 91 SIC in turboprops is just nuts. I worked a whole lot harder in the King-aire than the Citation! The rules were written for Twin Beeches.....

 

[airludy]

Just to let you guys know this operation has had copilots for about 6 years now. All young time builders. Everyone of them has either went to the regionals or factionals. Trust me 500 hours flying left seat or right in the king air with and MEI/cheif pilot in the right seat is a heck of a lot better than doing VFR instruction in a 152 at my local airport. We fly this King Air IFR all kinds of weather into the busiest airspaces in the world. My captain was a cheif pilot for a commuter and he has us do everything to the book. I perform everything a right seat guy in a beech 1900 or king air 350 would.. Pluis I get time in the left seat doing ALL the flying.. And the FARs say that is completely legal to log..I have all the FAA requirements to fly that aircraft..Any recruiter in his right mind would like to see this kind of experience.

 

[Speedtree]

Just curious, does anyone else get kicked off while formulating a reply, have to reregister and lose their composition? Maybe I'm too longwinded or inept at computers, I don't know. It's happened more than once.

Anyway, A SQUARED, you are correct. I agree that the FARs are very clear, especially in this case. If the aircraft type cert. or regulations don't require it, you can't log SIC.

I guess my statement was about the situation in general more than SIC.

Airludy, it's your decision. You can log it however you choose but know who you are trying to please and how you are going to explain it if asked. In my understanding the airlines view the FAR part 1 as the definition of PIC. The captain could be sleeping in the back and he is still the PIC. It's his choice and his arse on the line if the s___ hits the fan.

Ask your buddies how they logged it and how they explained it to the regional if they were asked. If it looks like you are going to be doing this gig for awhile, learn the aircraft and log it PIC. Research the jobs you are trying to get.

One last question. If the captain dropped dead at show time could you complete the trip without him as safely as you could with him along?

It's a hard choice and just don't do anything that you are going to regret.

 

[airludy]

YES! If the captain dropped dead I could fly it.. I had to go through their own little training course to get this job.. I went through a small ground school and had videos and manuals to study, then a test on the airplane I had to take. And guys I never said anything about logging it as SIC.. FARs part 91 "sole manipulater of the controls.. I have a high altitude endorsement, mutiengine commercial rating, and high performance rating. If I am flying, I am flying. If I won the lottery tomorrow and bought a King Air 200 I could fly it and would. We are talking about a King Air here, not a Citation X. This plane is yes more complicated than say a Seneca V, but it is not that hard to learn...

 

[OtterFO]

Viking,

The 5 hour rule only applies if you are giving instruction for a rating. I used to give Instrument Competancy Checks in twins I had no time in...

 

[flydog]

There is a BE-200 type rating but it is only required to fly the over 12,500 models which were mostly sold for military use. However there are some in civilian service.

 

[Huck]

Can't you get a combined 300/350/1900 rating? And would that apply to the >12,500 BE-200's? Inquiring minds want to know....

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I know for sure the King Air 300/350 and the Beech 1900 type are different requireing seperate type rides. but a t one time they were considered the same, I think this was before the 1900D was introduced at taht point I beleive was wneh the FAA decided to break up the types.I don't know of any 200's in civilian use for over 12500 only for military use i.e. c-12's. Yes a qulaified aircraft commander in the military can get a king air 200 type rating based on this but in a practical sense it is unneeded because for civilian apps the kingair 200 doesn't need a type to fly.

 

[skylane58]

I don't think that you need a type for the 200's over 12.5. The place I used to fly had a research 200 that had the increased gross weight up to 14500 and it didn't require a type to fly.

I logged PIC in the 200 from the right seat. I had logged taining in the airplane and the high alt. endorsement. So the leggs I flew, which was most, I logged PIC. But it is a grey area in the acting and logging area. Just be prepared to explain, plain and simple.

 

[C150Commuter]

If you are the sole manipulator, but not the PIC on the paperwork, how can the other person log the time, when it is a pt 91 single pilot op, and he's not touching the controls?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

The majors will only accept PIC time if you were the one with your name on the paperwork, or in the case of part 91, the insurance.

You may never get asked about it in the interview but that is how it was defined on every application that I ever saw.

Legal for the feds, the airlines have their own rules. Sole manipulator doesn't cut it for them. You HAVE to be the one responsible for the airplane.

Both the Commuter and Major I worked for treated it this way.