Logging Instrument Time

[gringo]

Say you´re flying over a large body of water at night. It´s CAVU- not a cloud in the sky. But it´s absolutely dark outside- no moon. Even though technically you´re in VFR conditions, because you can´t distinguish the horizon (nor any reference to the ground) that time would be considered instrument. I´ve had this over the ocean, over the Amazon (NOTHING, not a SPECK of light on the ground for HOURS) and even up in places like northern Wisconsin. If you have to stare at your AI to keep the plane straight and level, it´s instrument time.

I wouldn´t get too anal about the preciseness of your IMC time as well- I´ve yet to hear anyone say- ´Sorry, bud, you spent 14 minutes in the clouds, not 18!´ Just make an approximation. You don´t need to keep track on a sheet- 11:20- IMC, 11:23- VMC, 11:30-IMC, 11:35-VMC... (I´ve seen this done) a close approxamization will do just fine.

 

[gkrangers]

When I was time building for my commercial, I would just start/stop the timer on the clock to track my IMC.

 

[Kingair1181]

Thanks Gingo

 

[coloneldan]

IMC=Instrument Meteorological Conditions

To me, that means in the clouds. The night over water, dark areas, undercast, etc...doesn't count toward actual instrument. Atleast that's the way I have always looked at it. My $.02.

 

[midlifeflyer]

IMC=Instrument Meteorological Conditions

To me, that means in the clouds.

IMC considers both clouds =and= visibility.

There's a famous FAA Legal Opinion out there that authorizes logging actual instrument time on a moonless light over water (posted below).

The definition of "actual" ultimately comes down to a very practical one: did you need the instruments to keep the airplane upright because of cloud and/or visibility conditions outside the airplane?

==============================
November 7, 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr

Dear Mr. Carr:
This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.
First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

[unrelated portion snipped]

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

[unrelated portion snipped]

Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
==============================

 

[gringo]

IMC=Instrument Meteological Conditions

You´re getting hung up on the ´meteological´ portion. As posted above, meteological does not necessarily mean clouds, mist, fog or smog, although all of those would be, in fact, covered by the term. `Meteorological` simply means whatever weather condition exists which precludes being able to see a horizon, including a moonless night over featurless terrain. (The mere absence of ´weather´ in and of itself constitutes a weather condition)

Also, I´d like to point out, since basically you´re logging it on an honor system (it would be very hard for someone to prove you DIDN´T actually fly the flight under actual conditions- not impossible, but hard) I´ve found that based on my experiences, actual time usually constitutes about 10-15% of a pilots total time. That dosen´t mean that on any 1 hour flight only log 6 minutes of IMC- I´ve had many flights flying freight where we were IMC right after takeoff until breaking out at minimums 2 hours later, but many many many more flights where there was none. What I´m trying to say is, if you have 1000TT, you should have in the ballpark of 100-150 actual; 2000 hours, 200-300 hours. It all depends on what kind of flying you did, of course (freight dogs will have much more than a CFI, for instance), but if you show up to an interview with 1500TT and 600 IMC, some red flags will shoot up.

Again, if you think you spent 1/2 the flight IMC, log it as such. If you think you spent 1/4 the flight IMC, log it as such. Seems more important when you´re just starting out, but as your time builds, it becomes less of an issue. You can doo the stopwatch method if you wish, but it´s just too much of a hassle, with everything else going on in the cockpit (now where´s my Maxim? hmmm...)

 

[siucavflight]

When I was time building for my commercial, I would just start/stop the timer on the clock to track my IMC.

That seems like to much work, and if you did it that way how would you time your approaches?

 

[Kream926]

IMC=Instrument Meteorological Conditions

To me, that means in the clouds. The night over water, dark areas, undercast, etc...doesn't count toward actual instrument. Atleast that's the way I have always looked at it. My $.02.

ha you got it

im not expert and i amy be late in this one but "no ground refrence?"

c'mon people are you really that stupid VFR on top no visual refrences to the ground and what im reading from someof you is that thats IMC......go look it up

 

[A Squared]

ha you got it

im not expert and i amy be late in this one but "no ground refrence?"

c'mon people are you really that stupid VFR on top no visual refrences to the ground and what im reading from someof you is that thats IMC......go look it up

Uhhh, no, that is not what you're reading, or if that *is* what you're reading, you're not reading for comprehension. Nobody is claiming that VFR on top is Instrument time. (except perhaps the original poster, who was *asking* not claiming it)

 

[comander]

IMC its being a long time whats the M for or VMC for that matter? or maybe IM just to drunk to remember, any ways what is it insrtument mesured conditions? insrtument or visual mean conditions? ahhhh flcuk my spelling