logging instrument time

[cforst513]

i'm working on my instrument right now (almost done, actually) and i got to thinking: when it comes time to log time, how do i do it? here's an example. let's say that i file an IFR plan on a day that is severe clear, not a cloud in the sky. if i do not encounter any actual IMC, is this all simulated instrument time? or am i not allowed to count it at all? i know that if i encounter clouds or IMC, i can count that time as 'actual', but what about other times when no clouds are to be had?

 

[RichardRambone]

I think Im reading your post right but you can't log instrument time just because you're on an IFR flight plan. If its severe clear then you dont log anything other than the normal. Obviously if you go into the soup its actual but otherwise simulated can only be logged if your under the hood with an instructor/safety pilot. Then theres that whole "navigating soley by reference to instruments" thing that Im not even gonna touch.

 

[cforst513]

right, that's what i thought. thanks for your help! that's what i was looking for.

 

[viper548]

subtract .2 or so from the hobbs (taxi time) and log it as simulated instrument (if you're under the hood). If you're IFR by yourself after you're rated, if there's no clouds, then don't log any instrument time.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Just FYI, but the FAA has ruled that international guys flying at night over the water with no moon and "no discernable horizon" can log it as actual.

 

[Icelandair]

Usually by time you are flying international over the water at night you've probably stopped caring about logging actual instrument time.

 

[avbug]

Are you working on your instrument rating and don't have a copy of the regulation to study?

What you can and cannot log is very clearly spelled out in 14 CFR 61.51.

Being on an instrument flight plan has nothing to do with logging anything, instrument, or otherwise.

If you're in instrument conditions, be that clouds, night with no discernable horizon, between cloud layers, or any other conditions in which you must maintain control of the aircraft by reference to instruments (including simulated conditions), then you may log instrument time.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(g) Logging instrument flight time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of § 61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook -
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.

 

[Quillpig]

Never mind

 

[ksu_aviator]

Quill,

I don't, but I log my instrument time to reflect my experience. I feel the best representation of my instrument experience is to only log when I'm flying the airplane in actual instrument conditions. Don't get to hung up on logging anything you can. The time will come quick enough and that 1.0 of instrument time that seems so important now will mean very little in just a year or 2.

 

[A Squared]

Just FYI, but the FAA has ruled that international guys flying at night over the water with no moon and "no discernable horizon" can log it as actual.

Mostly right. You may log instrument time anytime you are controlling the airplne solely by refernce to instruments. This includes over water at night and over unpopulated areas with no lights, like Alaska and parts of the west. This isn't some exemption which applies only to internatinal flights, it's the regulation and it applies to anyone operating in such conditions

 

[TDTURBO]

Crossing Lake Michigan in the summer in the middle of the day in haze can easily be logged as actual. Although you can see staight down, now way you can fly without using instruments, my point being it doesn't necessarily have to be crossing water at night.

 

[MTpilot]

Technically you could log actual even while your legal vfr.

 

[sky37d]

Crossing Lake Michigan in the summer in the middle of the day in haze can easily be logged as actual. Although you can see staight down, now way you can fly without using instruments, my point being it doesn't necessarily have to be crossing water at night.

I've had a few of those days. Can't see squat.

 

[nosehair]

cforst, you sound like you may be getting some confusion by the way some European countries JAA regulations allow logging IFR time as the time you are on an IFR flight plan/clearance, regardless of weather conditions. That is true for them, but not for us. United States FAA rules say "flight by reference to instruments"...meaning you are keeping the greasy side down soley by referencing flight instruments, not a visible horizon - flight plan or not.

 

[A Squared]

Crossing Lake Michigan in the summer in the middle of the day in haze can easily be logged as actual. Although you can see staight down, now way you can fly without using instruments, my point being it doesn't necessarily have to be crossing water at night.

Yeah, that would be another example, and you're right, it doesn't have to be at night.

 

[ukpylot]

Another question.... If I'm a safety pilot for someone and he's under the hood and we encounter IMC do I still get to log PIC for that time? Does it make a difference if he's IFR-current or not?

 

[NYCPilot]

cforst513-

you've got to change that avatar. It's very disturbing...

 

[NYCPilot]

Another question.... If I'm a safety pilot for someone and he's under the hood and we encounter IMC do I still get to log PIC for that time? Does it make a difference if he's IFR-current or not?

This begs the question. Why would you encounter IMC if you're supposed to remain in VMC while simulating IFR. You should be maintaining VFR. I'm assuming your pilot friend is practicing approaches while you are the safety pilot in VFR conditions, and not on an IFR flight plan. Technically, you as a safety pilot should log it as SIC, unless the two of you have decided that he will be logging PIC as sole manipulator only. In this case, you have been designated the PIC, and if you were actually on an IFR flight plan and you've been designated PIC, then it makes no difference if he's current or not. You're the one who needs to be current.

 

[ukpylot]

Hmm... here in SoCal its complicated (at least in my mind) by the fact that we file our practice 'trip' as a tower en route clearance so never file an actual IFR flight plan, nor are we (usually) ever told to remain in VMC.

But you are right of course that if IMC is involved anywhere along the route then we'd better be real IFR and then I, as designated PIC, is the one whose currency counts.

 

[NYCPilot]

Around my way, heres how it usually works.

Normally, we depart our base VFR and contact approach control to request practice approaches. We'll tell them which ones we want and how many, and how the last one will terminate. From here, we are given a squawk code for separation and identification purposes. The approach controller gives us headings and altitudes to fly and they almost ALWAYS tell us to maintain VFR. Not only is it a reminder that you are NOT on an IFR flight plan, but to state that it is our responsibility to maintain VFR cloud distance and visiblities while operating in their airspace. It also implies that we are ultimately responsible for traffic separation while maneuvering, not ATC. Remember though, whether you are VFR or IFR and in VMC, you as the PIC are always responsible for collision avoidence.

It is conceivable that the two of you can be on an IFR flight plan, where you are safety pilot and acting PIC while in VMC and the other pilot is under the hood. Once you hit some IMC, he can still fly the plane without the hood and log IMC. You on the other hand can not. The FAR's state that actual can only be logged if you are controlling the plane solely by reference to flight instruments.