Logging CFII Time

[Hobiehawker]

A friend of mine is getting his instrument rating. He has received some of the instruction from a CFI. This CFI does not have his CFII but is wanting to earn the rating. My friend needs the required 15 hours of dual received by a CFII. So this is what his flight school is doing. The Chief Pilot of the flight school has a CFII. When my friend goes out for his lesson, the CFI is in the right seat and the CFII is in the back seat and signs my friends log book for the CFII work.

The question is, can a CFII (or any instructor for that matter) legally sign off a dual given by sitting in the back seat?

My money is no.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You'd lose your money. There's no FAR that says where a CFI has to sit.

Smart? Maybe yes and maybe no. Legal? Yup.

 

[flyf15]

You'd lose your money. There's no FAR that says where a CFI has to sit.

Smart? Maybe yes and maybe no. Legal? Yup.

Well, not quite, theres an FAR that says that it says where the CFI has to sit, but then it never actually says it.

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.
....
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements--
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.



Although it doesn't specifically say the instructor must be sitting in the other pilot seat, I think its pretty well implied. But then again, it doesn't spell it out. *shrug*

 

[flyf15]

I have a further question. Why doesn't the CFII just sit in the front seat and leave the CFI on the ground? Is he paying for both of them? Is the CFII just sleeping in the backseat or enjoying the scenery? He better not be signing that logbook for instruction given unless he's actually providing instruction.

Also, why doesn't the CFI get his II? If he's qualified to teach instrument students, the checkride should be a breeze. If he isn't, then he shouldn't be teaching them.


Egh, I don't like this.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Although it doesn't specifically say the instructor must be sitting in the other pilot seat,

That's right. And I don't see the implication that you do, especially when I consider that a blind CFI with no arms or legs can give flight training in an aircraft so long as someone else is acting as PIC. (No medical required, remember?)

Egh, I don't like this.

Maybe not. It's one of those multiple logging scenarios (theoretically, all three write the time, or at least some of it, in the PIC column of their logbooks) which are technically legit but open to abuse. But, other than that, I don't have too much of a problem with a CFI working on a II learning by participating in someone else's instrument instruction.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Maybe not. It's one of those multiple logging scenarios (theoretically, all three write the time, or at least some of it, in the PIC column of their logbooks) which are technically legit but open to abuse. But, other than that, I don't have too much of a problem with a CFI working on a II learning by participating in someone else's instrument instruction.

Thanks for all the responses. I am concerned about my money now.

This is where I see the problem. How can someone legally log PIC time by sitting in the back seat? And in this scenario, you know all three are logging the time.

"(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

I don't believe any back seat of a Cessna 172 has any "pilot" stations. And if a CFII is signing a logbook saying that he gave this person "flight instruction", they need to legally to be at one of those pilot stations.

But then again, it is far from clear. Thats just how I would interpret the reg.

Thanks again guys.

 

[Hobiehawker]

I have a further question. Why doesn't the CFII just sit in the front seat and leave the CFI on the ground? Is he paying for both of them? Is the CFII just sleeping in the backseat or enjoying the scenery? He better not be signing that logbook for instruction given unless he's actually providing instruction.

Also, why doesn't the CFI get his II? If he's qualified to teach instrument students, the checkride should be a breeze. If he isn't, then he shouldn't be teaching them.


Egh, I don't like this.

I agree with you.

When I was a CFI I would work with the owner of my flight school who was a CFII on some instrument students. He would give them the required 15 hours with the CFII and I would give them what ever else they needed. Our situation worked well. I didn't do it too often because there were not very many instrument students where I was involved.

The CFII is involved but not in a traditional Pilot/Instructor situation. The CFII interjects when needed. This situation is to help get the CFI experience to get his CFII. My friend is only paying for the CFII.

Thanks for your response.

 

[LSU Fan]

Riddle got caught doing this a while back if I remember correctly. I don't know specifically what the FAA did about it, but I do know they were not happy and Riddle soon stopped.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks for all the responses. I am concerned about my money now.

This is where I see the problem. How can someone legally log PIC time by sitting in the back seat?

It's the nature of "logging" PIC under FAR 61.51. Before you aks a "how can" logging question based on how things should work in the real world, remember one very important point. The FAA's logging rules are a set of artificial rules about what kind of time the FAA will allow you to count when you fill in an 8710. They have nothing nothing to do with being in command of a flight or where someone sits. Heck, an ATP who is the PIC on a flight requiring an ATP is permitted to log PIC even when in the bathroom or taking a nap. How's =that= for a seating arrangement?

A CFI logs PIC time simply by the act of giving instruction in flight. Doesn't matter whether the CFI is handling any controls or not. If a CFI is allowed to teach from the back seat, then he can log the time as PIC.

So here's the three-pilot scenario:

1. The instrument "student" logs PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he is rated for. 61.51(e)(1)(I)

2. The pilot in the right seat is the acting as PIC and performing safety pilot duties under 91.109(b)*. so he gets to log PIC because he is actin gas PIC in a flight operation that requires more than one pilot. 61.51(e)(1)(iii).

3. The CFI-I who is giving the actual instruction logs PIC because he is giving instruction. 61.51(e)(3).

Each person in the airplane has a rule that sepcifically alows him to log the time.

(*BTW, notice that the safety pilot rule, 91.109(b) =does= say that the safety pilot must be in a control seat; language that is notably missing from the paragraph in the same section talking about flight instruction.)

And yes, I'd watch my wallet also.

 

[Hobiehawker]

A CFI logs PIC time simply by the act of giving instruction in flight. Doesn't matter whether the CFI is handling any controls or not. If a CFI is allowed to teach from the back seat, then he can log the time as PIC.

I agree with the ambiguity of the reg.

But how about this reg:

"(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

This is where I believe it is less ambiguous.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Riddle got caught doing this a while back if I remember correctly. I don't know specifically what the FAA did about it, but I do know they were not happy and Riddle soon stopped.

I heard about it also but don't know the details. The problem with most of these scenarios is that, even when "technically" legal, they raise a red flag. So the FAA will probe deeper to make sure that the pilots =really= are doing things legitimately.

There's a difference, for example, between a CFII sitting iin the back because he doesn't have a medical and someone has to be a safety pilot and a situation in which it's just so that another CFI can build time. The amount it's done can also be a factor. A few times may be legitimate and a whole bunch of time might not.

There was an FAA case some years ago in which two CFI's logbooks claimed that they gave each other instruction every time they flew together, so they both logged PIC. Both had their certificates revoked.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Riddle got caught doing this a while back if I remember correctly. I don't know specifically what the FAA did about it, but I do know they were not happy and Riddle soon stopped.

And this is where some of my concern lies. That and just the unusual nature of this practice.

I believe that the FAA would be all over the fact that the CFII was in the back-seat if any event were to happen. And my friend could be implicated unintentionally.

When something is investigated I know from experience, not mine thank goodness, that many regs are put together to come up with the violation.

Patience is a virtue that I do not have therefore I won't go through all the regs to try and put this together. But I got a feeling that the "intent" is to not flight instruct in the back seat of a C-172.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I agree with the ambiguity of the reg.

But how about this reg:

"(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

This is where I believe it is less ambiguous.

61.195 still doesn't say which seat the CFI must be in, just that he has to be =in= a compliant aircraft rather than standing on the ground watching. Still missing is that "be in a control seat" language that you find for the safety pilot. I think it's consistent with all the other rules that treat a CFI as a teacher, not as a pilot.

Well, back to work now.

 

[Hobiehawker]

There's a difference, for example, between a CFII sitting iin the back because he doesn't have a medical and someone has to be a safety pilot and a situation in which it's just so that another CFI can build time. The amount it's done can also be a factor. A few times may be legitimate and a whole bunch of time might not.

Which is another question:

Can someone sign a logbook of a student with flight instruction given if they do not possess a medical?

I can't see how they could log any time without a medical.

 

[flyf15]

Which is another question:

Can someone sign a logbook of a student with flight instruction given if they do not possess a medical?

I can't see how they could log any time without a medical.

Yes, a CFI can instruct without a medical providing someone else in the airplane is acting as a PIC. For example, they can't teach primary students.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Yes, a CFI can instruct without a medical providing someone else in the airplane is acting as a PIC. For example, they can't teach primary students.

So a CFII can teach, act as a safety pilot and sign a logbook as instruction given without a medical. Is this all correct?

And if so, how does the reg regarding a safety pilot work. I thought, and its been a while since I have been at all involved with flight instruction, that one who is acting as a safety pilot has to be current in the category of aircraft.

I guess one can be current and not have a medical. Hmmm. Just can't act as pilot in command or second in command if required.

I think its beginning to sound legal, just not wise maybe.

The FAA could tell Riddle to stop the practice because they are part 141 school.

Thanks to all that have put some time into this thread.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So a CFII can teach, act as a safety pilot and sign a logbook as instruction given without a medical. Is this all correct?

No. The rule is that a CFI doesn't need a medical unless acting as PIC or as a required crewmember. Required crewmembers always need a medical. A safety pilot is a required crewmember.

But a CFI doesn't have to be PIC or a required crewmember. In those cases, no medical and no currency of any kind is required. There are others but the most common flight training example is teaching a commercial applicant. For instrumenmt training, there would need to be another pilot acting as safety pilot (occupying a control seat position).

And if so, how does the reg regarding a safety pilot work. I thought, and its been a while since I have been at all involved with flight instruction, that one who is acting as a safety pilot has to be current in the category of aircraft.

Read it. 91.109(b). A safety pilot needs at least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class ratings. The medical certificate requirement is in 61.3(c). You won't find any currency requirements for the safety pilot (unless, of course the safety pilot is acting as PIC in which case it's just PIC currency requirements)