Logging CFII Time

[midlifeflyer]

Riddle got caught doing this a while back if I remember correctly. I don't know specifically what the FAA did about it, but I do know they were not happy and Riddle soon stopped.

I heard about it also but don't know the details. The problem with most of these scenarios is that, even when "technically" legal, they raise a red flag. So the FAA will probe deeper to make sure that the pilots =really= are doing things legitimately.

There's a difference, for example, between a CFII sitting iin the back because he doesn't have a medical and someone has to be a safety pilot and a situation in which it's just so that another CFI can build time. The amount it's done can also be a factor. A few times may be legitimate and a whole bunch of time might not.

There was an FAA case some years ago in which two CFI's logbooks claimed that they gave each other instruction every time they flew together, so they both logged PIC. Both had their certificates revoked.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Riddle got caught doing this a while back if I remember correctly. I don't know specifically what the FAA did about it, but I do know they were not happy and Riddle soon stopped.

And this is where some of my concern lies. That and just the unusual nature of this practice.

I believe that the FAA would be all over the fact that the CFII was in the back-seat if any event were to happen. And my friend could be implicated unintentionally.

When something is investigated I know from experience, not mine thank goodness, that many regs are put together to come up with the violation.

Patience is a virtue that I do not have therefore I won't go through all the regs to try and put this together. But I got a feeling that the "intent" is to not flight instruct in the back seat of a C-172.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I agree with the ambiguity of the reg.

But how about this reg:

"(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

This is where I believe it is less ambiguous.

61.195 still doesn't say which seat the CFI must be in, just that he has to be =in= a compliant aircraft rather than standing on the ground watching. Still missing is that "be in a control seat" language that you find for the safety pilot. I think it's consistent with all the other rules that treat a CFI as a teacher, not as a pilot.

Well, back to work now.

 

[Hobiehawker]

There's a difference, for example, between a CFII sitting iin the back because he doesn't have a medical and someone has to be a safety pilot and a situation in which it's just so that another CFI can build time. The amount it's done can also be a factor. A few times may be legitimate and a whole bunch of time might not.

Which is another question:

Can someone sign a logbook of a student with flight instruction given if they do not possess a medical?

I can't see how they could log any time without a medical.

 

[flyf15]

Which is another question:

Can someone sign a logbook of a student with flight instruction given if they do not possess a medical?

I can't see how they could log any time without a medical.

Yes, a CFI can instruct without a medical providing someone else in the airplane is acting as a PIC. For example, they can't teach primary students.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Yes, a CFI can instruct without a medical providing someone else in the airplane is acting as a PIC. For example, they can't teach primary students.

So a CFII can teach, act as a safety pilot and sign a logbook as instruction given without a medical. Is this all correct?

And if so, how does the reg regarding a safety pilot work. I thought, and its been a while since I have been at all involved with flight instruction, that one who is acting as a safety pilot has to be current in the category of aircraft.

I guess one can be current and not have a medical. Hmmm. Just can't act as pilot in command or second in command if required.

I think its beginning to sound legal, just not wise maybe.

The FAA could tell Riddle to stop the practice because they are part 141 school.

Thanks to all that have put some time into this thread.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So a CFII can teach, act as a safety pilot and sign a logbook as instruction given without a medical. Is this all correct?

No. The rule is that a CFI doesn't need a medical unless acting as PIC or as a required crewmember. Required crewmembers always need a medical. A safety pilot is a required crewmember.

But a CFI doesn't have to be PIC or a required crewmember. In those cases, no medical and no currency of any kind is required. There are others but the most common flight training example is teaching a commercial applicant. For instrumenmt training, there would need to be another pilot acting as safety pilot (occupying a control seat position).

And if so, how does the reg regarding a safety pilot work. I thought, and its been a while since I have been at all involved with flight instruction, that one who is acting as a safety pilot has to be current in the category of aircraft.

Read it. 91.109(b). A safety pilot needs at least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class ratings. The medical certificate requirement is in 61.3(c). You won't find any currency requirements for the safety pilot (unless, of course the safety pilot is acting as PIC in which case it's just PIC currency requirements)