Logging CFII Time

[Hobiehawker]

A friend of mine is getting his instrument rating. He has received some of the instruction from a CFI. This CFI does not have his CFII but is wanting to earn the rating. My friend needs the required 15 hours of dual received by a CFII. So this is what his flight school is doing. The Chief Pilot of the flight school has a CFII. When my friend goes out for his lesson, the CFI is in the right seat and the CFII is in the back seat and signs my friends log book for the CFII work.

The question is, can a CFII (or any instructor for that matter) legally sign off a dual given by sitting in the back seat?

My money is no.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You'd lose your money. There's no FAR that says where a CFI has to sit.

Smart? Maybe yes and maybe no. Legal? Yup.

 

[flyf15]

You'd lose your money. There's no FAR that says where a CFI has to sit.

Smart? Maybe yes and maybe no. Legal? Yup.

Well, not quite, theres an FAR that says that it says where the CFI has to sit, but then it never actually says it.

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.
....
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements--
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.



Although it doesn't specifically say the instructor must be sitting in the other pilot seat, I think its pretty well implied. But then again, it doesn't spell it out. *shrug*

 

[flyf15]

I have a further question. Why doesn't the CFII just sit in the front seat and leave the CFI on the ground? Is he paying for both of them? Is the CFII just sleeping in the backseat or enjoying the scenery? He better not be signing that logbook for instruction given unless he's actually providing instruction.

Also, why doesn't the CFI get his II? If he's qualified to teach instrument students, the checkride should be a breeze. If he isn't, then he shouldn't be teaching them.


Egh, I don't like this.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Although it doesn't specifically say the instructor must be sitting in the other pilot seat,

That's right. And I don't see the implication that you do, especially when I consider that a blind CFI with no arms or legs can give flight training in an aircraft so long as someone else is acting as PIC. (No medical required, remember?)

Egh, I don't like this.

Maybe not. It's one of those multiple logging scenarios (theoretically, all three write the time, or at least some of it, in the PIC column of their logbooks) which are technically legit but open to abuse. But, other than that, I don't have too much of a problem with a CFI working on a II learning by participating in someone else's instrument instruction.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Maybe not. It's one of those multiple logging scenarios (theoretically, all three write the time, or at least some of it, in the PIC column of their logbooks) which are technically legit but open to abuse. But, other than that, I don't have too much of a problem with a CFI working on a II learning by participating in someone else's instrument instruction.

Thanks for all the responses. I am concerned about my money now.

This is where I see the problem. How can someone legally log PIC time by sitting in the back seat? And in this scenario, you know all three are logging the time.

"(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

I don't believe any back seat of a Cessna 172 has any "pilot" stations. And if a CFII is signing a logbook saying that he gave this person "flight instruction", they need to legally to be at one of those pilot stations.

But then again, it is far from clear. Thats just how I would interpret the reg.

Thanks again guys.

 

[Hobiehawker]

I have a further question. Why doesn't the CFII just sit in the front seat and leave the CFI on the ground? Is he paying for both of them? Is the CFII just sleeping in the backseat or enjoying the scenery? He better not be signing that logbook for instruction given unless he's actually providing instruction.

Also, why doesn't the CFI get his II? If he's qualified to teach instrument students, the checkride should be a breeze. If he isn't, then he shouldn't be teaching them.


Egh, I don't like this.

I agree with you.

When I was a CFI I would work with the owner of my flight school who was a CFII on some instrument students. He would give them the required 15 hours with the CFII and I would give them what ever else they needed. Our situation worked well. I didn't do it too often because there were not very many instrument students where I was involved.

The CFII is involved but not in a traditional Pilot/Instructor situation. The CFII interjects when needed. This situation is to help get the CFI experience to get his CFII. My friend is only paying for the CFII.

Thanks for your response.

 

[LSU Fan]

Riddle got caught doing this a while back if I remember correctly. I don't know specifically what the FAA did about it, but I do know they were not happy and Riddle soon stopped.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks for all the responses. I am concerned about my money now.

This is where I see the problem. How can someone legally log PIC time by sitting in the back seat?

It's the nature of "logging" PIC under FAR 61.51. Before you aks a "how can" logging question based on how things should work in the real world, remember one very important point. The FAA's logging rules are a set of artificial rules about what kind of time the FAA will allow you to count when you fill in an 8710. They have nothing nothing to do with being in command of a flight or where someone sits. Heck, an ATP who is the PIC on a flight requiring an ATP is permitted to log PIC even when in the bathroom or taking a nap. How's =that= for a seating arrangement?

A CFI logs PIC time simply by the act of giving instruction in flight. Doesn't matter whether the CFI is handling any controls or not. If a CFI is allowed to teach from the back seat, then he can log the time as PIC.

So here's the three-pilot scenario:

1. The instrument "student" logs PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he is rated for. 61.51(e)(1)(I)

2. The pilot in the right seat is the acting as PIC and performing safety pilot duties under 91.109(b)*. so he gets to log PIC because he is actin gas PIC in a flight operation that requires more than one pilot. 61.51(e)(1)(iii).

3. The CFI-I who is giving the actual instruction logs PIC because he is giving instruction. 61.51(e)(3).

Each person in the airplane has a rule that sepcifically alows him to log the time.

(*BTW, notice that the safety pilot rule, 91.109(b) =does= say that the safety pilot must be in a control seat; language that is notably missing from the paragraph in the same section talking about flight instruction.)

And yes, I'd watch my wallet also.

 

[Hobiehawker]

A CFI logs PIC time simply by the act of giving instruction in flight. Doesn't matter whether the CFI is handling any controls or not. If a CFI is allowed to teach from the back seat, then he can log the time as PIC.

I agree with the ambiguity of the reg.

But how about this reg:

"(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

This is where I believe it is less ambiguous.