Logging Approaches

[Starscream]

Midnight Flyer........

I absolutely hear what you're saying.........

My point is that a type rated FO can LOG PIC on his/her legs to fulfill the experience requirements for a certificate (ATP) or rating under part 61 without any repercussions or scrutiny from the FAA. It's perfectly legal under FAR 61. Beyond that, though (SWA/FDX/UPS interview), I certainly wouldn't present hours logged under those circumstances as PIC time.

 

[Stuckerdud]

If you did not complete Captain OE you are not qualified to be PIC. For example, at one time I was an Inflight Relief Officer (IRO) on 757 and A320 aircraft. I have type ratings on both aircraft but never completed Captain OE. When I occupied the Captain's seat I did not log PIC time. Instead, I have a column in my logbook labeled "IRO". Another guide to use is "who signed the release". If it wasn't you, you are not the PIC. That's it. Sorry Mikey - you kool-aid drinkin' yutz!

 

[vectorvictor]

Tram,
I believe most airlines that require 121 PIC make a distinction on their application under PIC time (i.e., 121 PIC). I would feel very comfortable explaining why I logged PIC on a 737 if I was type rated and sole manipulator of the controls. However, if they asked for 121 PIC, I would not include any time not acting as PIC (i.e., first officer).

Here's an idea for you. Wait to upgrade and earn your 121 PIC time like the rest of us. Just a suggestion.

VV

 

[blueridge71]

I knew a guy who was a 737 first officer and happened to have a 737 type rating. He decided he would log the legs he flew as PIC time.
My interpretation is that 2 people can't log pic time for the same flight. (I'm talking 121 line flying) This guy wasn't the captain, didn't sign the flight release and wasnt' responsible for the flight yet he thought it was his right to log his legs as PIC time.

FAR 61 allows the manipulator of the controls to log PIC if he is rated in the aircraft.

FAR 1 is captain time.

Log each if you like, but don't mix the two up.

Southwest, among others, specifically states that PIC time has to comply with the FAR 1 definition (signing for the aircraft).

 

[gmsguy]

Ok. But can you show me where in the regulations it defines that the pilot in command is the captain?

 

[SSDD]

I think it is important for us to know the difference between what is legal, and what Southwest requires. It is a slippery slope to let each individual operator decide what is legal and what isn't. The FAR's are the FAR's, they are the final word in what is legal and what isn't. If for example, I were flying a Lear for a 135 operation, and I was typed on that Lear, I would log PIC time. However, when I applied to Southwest, or whoever, I would not include that time as PIC.

Its important to know what is legal and what is custom.

 

[SDCFI]

Another real-world example: I'm a type-rated FO at a fractional. I log my legs as PF as PIC as the FAR's allow. The company backs this up by stating during training that if I upgrade on the same aircraft and I have logged 100 hours PIC in the aircraft I won't be a high-mins captain, even though I have never signed for the plane. This is all perfectly legal. I can also use this PIC time should I have an opportunity to fly as a contract pilot where a certain amount of PIC time is required. Now, I have a separate column in my logbook for this logged PIC time. This time does not go on my airline applications when they require Part I PIC time. I already have close to 2000 hours turbine PIC from flying freight, and I make sure to keep them separate. There is nothing "dirty" or unethical about logging time this way. It's perfectly legal according to Mr FAA. It doesn't get you any unfair advantage because any major airline interviewer knows the difference between what you can log, and what is accepted by them. If there's any doubt as to the validity of your time they show you the door. Easy as pie.

 

[flylowman]

So I learn to fly at a young age. I do not have a commercial licence and I cropdust for about 3 years. Can I log this time when I get a commercial?

What do you think? Get a life. No you can't. If you do, I would not include it in PIC for required 121 PIC time.

Look at an app. It ask PIC ie. signing for aircraft.

 

[Beetle007]

Another real-world example: I'm a type-rated FO at a fractional. I log my legs as PF as PIC as the FAR's allow. The company backs this up by stating during training that if I upgrade on the same aircraft and I have logged 100 hours PIC in the aircraft I won't be a high-mins captain, even though I have never signed for the plane.

You can't use the PIC logged as a SIC to waive the high mins for captain under part 121 (not sure about fractionals). You were not serving as PIC...only logging PIC.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.

An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.

 

[Beetle007]

To throw another curvball. A type rated SIC can only log PIC if they have a commerical certificate or less. Reference 61.51

If you have an ATP you can not log PIC unless you are the captain.

The reason for this is that PIC requirements are used to meet the requirements of a ATP. Once you have an ATP, the FAA doesn't see any reason for you to log PIC unless you are the captain.

 

[AC560]

Ok. But can you show me where in the regulations it defines that the pilot in command is the captain?

Pilot in Command has only one definition it is found in FAR 1.1. Captain is a word that airlines use it has no meaning in the FAR's. If you have two or more Captains on a flight, only one of them is PIC. How that gets decided it gets decided is another issue but the rank Captain is pointless in the discussion.


Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and
safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the
flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if
appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

The above though has nothing to do with logging under part 61.51. Logging under part 61.51 generally has little if anything to do with how you will fill out your flying time on a job application.

It never ceases to amaze me how much this gets debated and discussed by people who really should know what the answer is.

 

[Starscream]

To throw another curvball. A type rated SIC can only log PIC if they have a commerical certificate or less. Reference 61.51

If you have an ATP you can not log PIC unless you are the captain.

The reason for this is that PIC requirements are used to meet the requirements of a ATP. Once you have an ATP, the FAA doesn't see any reason for you to log PIC unless you are the captain.

That's not a bad point.

You could also say that you can log it in that situation -- but it just wouldn't count towards anything anymore.

The FARs wouldn't prohibit it per se, it just wouldn't be usable towards anything in practice once you have the ATP.

 

[twighead]

So just out of curiosity, how do you log night time when you're PNF? Both night and instrument are conditions of flight.

Both are conditions of fight, but the regulations define the requirements to log each of them differently. Instrument time can only be logged "only for that flight time when the PERSON operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." They have no such reqirement to log night time.

As far as logging 121 PIC time when you are the SIC and sole manipulator, this proves that you can't do it:
61.51 "2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate."

It specifies "acting" as PIC, therefore you can't log it under the sole manipulator clause.

 

[Explosive]

Both are conditions of fight, but the regulations define the requirements to log each of them differently. Instrument time can only be logged "only for that flight time when the PERSON operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." They have no such reqirement to log night time.

As far as logging 121 PIC time when you are the SIC and sole manipulator, this proves that you can't do it:
61.51 "2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate."

It specifies "acting" as PIC, therefore you can't log it under the sole manipulator clause.

You are 100% wrong on both items. So an SIC is not "operating" an airplane as the PM? Also, the 61.51 reference that you posted simply allows the PIC (in operations requiring an ATP) to log PIC time while acting as the PIC even when not manipulating the controls.

 

[twighead]

You are 100% wrong on both items.

Show me your argment then. It's pretty black and white to me. Tha sole manipulator reg specifies in the first line that it applies only sport, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. The ATP portion is a separate line.