Logging Approaches

[Flying Illini]

I don't log any flown entirely in VMC
I don't log any that only fly through several hundred feet of clouds...unless those clouds are on the ground and force me to fly to minimus.
I DO log any that start in IMC, even if we break out at 600' AGL (but not those where we break out at 2000' AGL. Is that illegal?

Can I only log the approaches that are to minimums?

 

[Pickle]

I think that as long as you have any amount of IMC after being cleared for the approach, you can log the approach.

I don't think that you have to go down to mins for it to count.

 

[ilkwamh2]

Yo Illini,

I remember talking this over with "the shark" if you remember who she is. You legally flew an approach if you have passed the final approach fix. So basically, if you are suppose to intercept glide slope at 2000' feet, and at 1999' you brake out of the clouds, you technically can count that as an approach. I certainly wouldn't though...so for me, it's at my discretion. I'd say that anytime the visibility is 3 miles or less or the ceiling is 1000' or less I would log it. By the way, how's Champaign, are you sucking DEE's nuts??? I bet the ladies are though.

-W

 

[minitour]

I think that as long as you have any amount of IMC after being cleared for the approach, you can log the approach.

I don't think that you have to go down to mins for it to count.

Good way to think about it.

Consider this...

If you were REALLY down to minimums (thinking visibility - not MDA/DH clouds)...wouldn't you be going missed most of the time? Any math junkies out there could probably figure out a probability on how many approaches you'd actually get in if the visibility were at minimums (since that's what counts on the plate)...just an assumption on my part though...

However...if you're using instruments to keep the greasy side down, it's instrument time...log the approach...JMHO

-mini

 

[Swerpipe]

Wx at mins results in missed approach?

Good way to think about it.

Consider this...

If you were REALLY down to minimums (thinking visibility - not MDA/DH clouds)...wouldn't you be going missed most of the time?

-mini

No, if the weather is at minimums or better you would probably make it. On non-precision approaches you may have to circle, depending on the runway lighting and airport geometry. If I counted the approaches I've flown, I would guess that we've been able to get in on more than 95% of the ones that were at "minimums". The most significant factor in the ones we didn't get in was indadequate runway lighting or the weather being less than "advertised".
BTW log the approach if you are IMC past the FAF and cleared for the approach.

 

[minitour]

...BTW log the approach if you are IMC past the FAF and cleared for the approach.

Cool info about the circling, visibility, etc...

Just wondering if there's a legal interpretation or reg somewhere about the IMC past the FAF & Cleared?

So if you were doing hood work with a safety pilot and was cleared for the approach, you could take off the hood just past the FAF and log the approach?

Also, does that apply then to -IIs too, who get to log approaches the students fly in IMC?

Not saying you're wrong...just looking for clarification and curious...

-mini

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Just wondering if there's a legal interpretation or reg somewhere about the IMC past the FAF & Cleared?

There is no opinion specifically on point relating to ~when~ to log an approach, that I'm aware of. The best I know of is an opinion that indicates that the approach "procedures" must be flown to minimums (note: it does not appear to say that it must be in IMC to minimum).

January 28, 1992

(no name given)



This is in response to your October 24, 1991, letter in which you asked several questions about certain Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

.....

edited for brevity

.....

Second, you questioned how low a pilot must descend (i.e., minimum descent altitude or decision height or full stop landing) on the six instrument approaches he must log to meet the recent IFR experience requirements specified in FAR Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) (14 CFR Sec. 61.57 (e)(1)(i)). You also asked if an instrument approach "counts" if only part of the approach is conducted in actual IFR conditions. Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) states that:



No pilot may act as pilot in command under IFR, nor in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless he has, within the past 6 calendar months - (i) In the case of an aircraft other than a glider, logged at least 6 hours of instrument time under actual or simulated IFR conditions, at least 3 of which were in flight in the category of aircraft involved, including at least six instrument approaches, or passed an instrument competency check in the category of aircraft involved.



For currency purposes, an instrument approach under Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) may be flown in either actual or simulated IFR conditions. Further, unless the instrument approach procedure must be abandoned for safety reasons, we believe the pilot must follow the instrument approach procedure to minimum descent altitude or decision height.

...

edited for brevity

.....

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further information in this regard.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne

Assistant Chief Counsel

There is probably good reason why the FAA does not spell out ~exactly~ the amount of IMC required in order to count the approach for currency--there are simply too many variations. The FAA considered spelling this out in 1997 when they rewrote the regs; however, they chose not to.

Many rely on a 'Rule of Reason' to measure whether the approach counts.

 

[Atccfi]

Quote:

"Also, does that apply then to -IIs too, who get to log approaches the students fly in IMC?"



The way I look at it, When I am doing an approach with a student, IMC or not, and we descend to minimums I log it. I am PIC as the instructor, and should anything go wrong, it would come back to me. So if I am responsible for the outcome do I not have the right to log it? What do other -IIs log?

 

[Swerpipe]

CFII logging

Cool info about the circling, visibility, etc...

Just wondering if there's a legal interpretation or reg somewhere about the IMC past the FAF & Cleared?

So if you were doing hood work with a safety pilot and was cleared for the approach, you could take off the hood just past the FAF and log the approach?

Also, does that apply then to -IIs too, who get to log approaches the students fly in IMC?

Not saying you're wrong...just looking for clarification and curious...

-mini

Hey mini,
There is only 1 PIC in the airplane (for a non CFII safety pilot). The only exception is when a safety pilot is there because you have the hood on and can not maintain visual separation from other aircraft in VFR,then in that case he is SIC because he is required. The second you take your hood off his requirement goes out the window and there is only 1 PIC on the aircraft, no SIC. A CFI can also log PIC, that is the only exception to having 2 pilots log PIC together but he must be giving dual instruction. The II can log the approach if it was done in actual not simulated otherwise he is instructing in VFR and looking out the window for traffic. The student can log the approach if he/she was hooded.
If you take the hood off past the FAF you don't need the safety pilot and you are just VFR simulating an approach in visual conditions but you are not simulating instruments.
If you take the hood off after the FAF you shouldn't log the approach. Because you are not "shooting" the approach. Obviously, this is an honor system like everything else in aviation. If that were your attitude then why don't you just log 6 approaches and not bother and then you are "legal". You would just be fooling yourself. You would be legal but perhaps dead when you do it in actual. In the real world I log it when I feel that we (as a crew) "flew the approach" regarless of the weather. For instance, one of the airports we service gets hazy in the afternoon and with 2 mile visibility the approach really takes us to minimums (loc approach). The call outs and the approach is just like if we were in the soup. "Right before the MAP the copilot says "field in sight", "vacating MDA, flaps full". We land and when we taxy back away from the Sun it's hard to believe that we acutally had to "fly" the approach. Guess what? We log it. Sometimes we are cleared for an ILS and I have the runway at the OM. Even though I fly down on the loc/gs, I don't log it because it doesn't feel that we flew it. Also, our call outs are different depending on whether we have the airport and ground in sight or not. We have visual and instruments call outs. So if we switch to visual call outs then we don't log it.

 

[spngbobsqrpilot]

logging the approach

Years ago the concept was to log an approach if, at any time from the IAF to landing (or MAP), you went IMC.

If you were being vectored, then you could log the approach if you went IMC during any part of the vectoring to the landing (again, or MAP if needed).