Logbook Question

[Joshrk22]

With regards to logbooks, what is required and what is optional? I'm studying the PTS for my checkride and the FAR's aren't very clear.

 

[tathepilot]

if your a cfi, you must log every flight on which you sign someones logbook... other than that, you are only legally req to log flts which you need for currency...

 

[avbug]

Josh,

The regulations are quite clear, particularly with respect to the logging of flight time. If you're looking for regulatory answers in the Practical Test Standards, you're looking in the wrong place.

The PTS is not the regulation. To learn of the regulations, read the regulations.

Which one concerns you?

It's your question that's not clear. You ask what is required. What is required for what?

 

[Joshrk22]

I am REVIEWING the PTS for my checkride...

I realize the PTS are not the regulations. I'm going through the PTS and the certificate and document portion mentions logbooks. What is required to be in a logbook? That is my question...

It appears that TTP has already answered it though.

 

[nosehair]

Well, TTP is wrong. A CFI must sign the logbook of anyone he gives instruction to, but he does not have to log the flight in his logbook.

Read all about logging flight time in FAR 61.51
(a)(1) says you must log all the time that is required for a certificate or rating or flight review.

(a)(2) says you have to log enough to show recency of experience requirements, which is in 61.57.

 

[tathepilot]

Well, TTP is wrong. A CFI must sign the logbook of anyone he gives instruction to, but he does not have to log the flight in his logbook.

Read all about logging flight time in FAR 61.51
(a)(1) says you must log all the time that is required for a certificate or rating or flight review.

(a)(2) says you have to log enough to show recency of experience requirements, which is in 61.57.

I don't want to start a battle of who is right and who is wrong, so let's read together..

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
(b) A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a separate document that contains the following:
(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and
(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results.
(c) Each flight instructor must retain the records required by this section for at least 3 years.

 

[Doc Holiday]

I am REVIEWING the PTS for my checkride...

I realize the PTS are not the regulations. I'm going through the PTS and the certificate and document portion mentions logbooks. What is required to be in a logbook? That is my question...

It appears that TTP has already answered it though.

I'm sure the DPE will accept flightinfo or TTP as a valid reference when you are asked where to find a fact....

 

[avbug]

Your logbook will need to contain adequate logged flights, properly endorsed where required instruction has been received from an authorized instructor, to verify that you have met the requirements of 14 CFR 61.109 (aeronautical experience). You will need an endorsement in your logbook recommending you for the practical test in accordance with 61.103(f). You will need an endorsement in your logbook recommending you for the written test in accordance with 61.103(d).

Just as it states in the regulation...which is pretty darn clear on the subject.

 

[DrewBlows]

I don't want to start a battle of who is right and who is wrong, so let's read together..

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
(b) A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a separate document that contains the following:
(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and
(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results.
(c) Each flight instructor must retain the records required by this section for at least 3 years.

You are mistaken. You are required to keep a record of every person you signed off for solo flight (61.189b1) or for a practical or knowledge test (61.189b2). This regulation doesn't require you to log flights when you have given instruction. No other regulation requires that either.

 

[Joshrk22]

Doc,

Thank you for your 97th post in 2 years that contributed oh so well...

Avbug,

This is what I wasn't sure about. I didn't receive a entry for the knowledge test, it was done in a prep book. If you look at 61.51 about Pilot Logbooks it says nothing of endorsing the logbook for the knowledge test, but in 61.103 (as you have pointed it) it is made out to sound that this must be there and can be the only place. So which is it?

Also, I was asking more about which time you don't need to log after your PPL. Such as you don't need to log solo time, and if you do, what are the circumstances; or, what flight time needs to be logged (and like you said, only flight time that is meant for aeronautical experience or currency).

 

[avbug]

This is what I wasn't sure about. I didn't receive a entry for the knowledge test, it was done in a prep book. If you look at 61.51 about Pilot Logbooks it says nothing of endorsing the logbook for the knowledge test, but in 61.103 (as you have pointed it) it is made out to sound that this must be there and can be the only place. So which is it?

14 CF 61.51 discusses logging of flight time, not endorsements required by other regulations...so you're looking in the wrong regulation. 61.103(d) addresses the endorsement required for your knowledge exam, and it states:

§ 61.103 Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for a private pilot certificate, a person must:

(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:

(1) Conducted the training or reviewed the person's home study on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in § 61.105(b) of this part that apply to the aircraft rating sought; and

(2) Certified that the person is prepared for the required knowledge test.

It is this requirement which sets forth the requirement to have a logbook endorsement, not any found in 61.51. Which is it, you ask? It's the regulation that sets the requirement, not the regulation that has nothing to do with it. Look at 61.103(b), because this is where the requirement is found.

Also, I was asking more about which time you don't need to log after your PPL. Such as you don't need to log solo time, and if you do, what are the circumstances; or, what flight time needs to be logged (and like you said, only flight time that is meant for aeronautical experience or currency).

This has been answered here several times now, and is spelled out in the regulation, but in a nutshell (again) you need to log that time required to show compliance with the regulation for the purposes of recency of experience (currency), any required training, endorsements required by the regulation, and to demonstrate the experience requirements for any certificate, rating, or privilege. Beyond that, you aren't required to log your time.

Is there a particular reason you want to know what you're not required to log...a reason you wouldn't want to log your experience?

 

[Joshrk22]

Thank you for clearing that up. No reason in particular. I just want to know in case the examiner asks me about logbooks and what needs to be logged and what doesn't necessarily have to.

 

[avbug]

That, Josh, is the right answer.

 

[tathepilot]

i stand corrected about my first post, that is why i posted 61.189

 

[midlifeflyer]

i stand corrected about my first post, that is why i posted 61.189

Which I guess proves the point that AvBug made at the beginning:

To learn of the regulations, read the regulations.

 

[tathepilot]

true!