Live Smartpref overated?

[Nevets]

For the constrained group affected by unstacking, is there a way for these pilots to preference unstacked pairings? Or will Smartpref assign pairings as it desires?

Under Prefbid, the pilot group may not know EXACTLY where the system will need to invoke unstacking (though ALPA does recommend that the most junior pilots submit an unstack bid), but it is not a big issue to preference pairings around expected unstacking days (e.g., holidays).

For example, Prefbid might need to unstack around Christmas. Now, depending on how senior pilots bid, the unstack might be for Christmas pairings only, or it might affect pairings that fall a day or two on either side of Christmas. The unknown does not affect my bid, as I preference all potential pairings:

Unstack Pref 1: Pairings departing Dec 27
Unstack Pref 2: Pairings departing Dec 26
Unstack Pref 3: Pairings finishing Dec 23
Unstack Pref 4: Pairings finishing Dec 24
Unstack Pref 5: Pairings departing Dec 25 after 1200
Unstack Pref 6: Pairings finishing Dec 25 before 1200
Unstack Pref 7: Pairings departing Dec 25
Unstack Pref 8: Pairings finishing Dec 25
Unstack Pref 9: Pairings departing Dec 24
Unstack Pref 10: Pairings departing Dec 23
Unstack Pref 11: Pairings departing Dec 22
etc.

Using the preview window, I then can confirm that I have bid all the appropriate pairings. If unstacking is required, a list of affected pairings is generated. If I happen to be a pilot affected by unstacking, Prefbid will start at the top of my unstack preferences and work down until it finds criteria matching one of the unstack pairings. Provided that pairing has not been requested by and assigned to a senior bidder, I will receive the pairing. (If unstacking does not affect me, Prefbid will not need to consider my unstack preferences; it will look only at my other bid sheets.)

Under a globalized system, I do not think such selection of unstack pairings is possible. So to compare and contrast:
SmartPref: Pilots know if they are in the constrained group, but they have no way of preferencing which pairings they might receive?
Prefbid: Pilots may not know for sure if they will be unstacked, but they have complete control of ordering all unstack pairings according to their preferences.

Just as prefbid will not assign you a pairing that has been requested and assigned to a senior bidder, smartpref does the same in the constrained group as well. The difference is that you see it right away and can bid accordingly just as you do with your unstacked preferences. The way you tell the system what you want through your bidding may be different but it sounds like the end result is the same , as far as unstacking goes.

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

Just as prefbid will not assign you a pairing that has been requested and assigned to a senior bidder, smartpref does the same in the constrained group as well.

Well, now I am thoroughly confused because what you have described does NOT seem to be globalization, yet my understanding was that the constrained group WAS globalized. Is it possible for a "senior" pilot in the constrained group to bid on a specific pairing but to have that pairing awarded to a more "junior" pilot, also in the constrained group?

 

[Nevets]

Well, now I am thoroughly confused because what you have described does NOT seem to be globalization, yet my understanding was that the constrained group WAS globalized. Is it possible for a "senior" pilot in the constrained group to bid on a specific pairing but to have that pairing awarded to a more "junior" pilot, also in the constrained group?

Like I said earlier, it uses neutral trips, as you described. In either system, unless you bid #1, you are never guaranteed to get what you bid for.

 

[No Delay]

Nevets,

I hear you and others arguing the functionality and logic of the 2 pbs systems...and I just don't get it. I don't see a big difference in the two. I know they think and process differently, but if the results are the same...or even close to the same...what's the big deal? (For both sides).

I am actually to the point where I don't care. I think we need to do one of two things. Either run both systems for a few months. Let the pilots try both and put it to a vote. Or we can just flip a coin and move on.

But here is my question to you (and it is an honest question). You seem to pretty familiar with both systems and are obviously pushing for the new pbs system. What are you seeing, not in logic, but in results that is so different? What are you seeing in results that makes it worth all the time, energy, and uncertainty?

Is our system giving you a 4 day over the weekend when the new pbs will give you 3 day or weekends off? What are we actually talking about? I have read your remarks about preserving your qol, just asking what specifically are you talking about?

Again, not talking about programming logic, but what have you seen in the results?

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

In either system, unless you bid #1, you are never guaranteed to get what you bid for.

What do you mean by this statement? I have bid 20%-50% relative seniority and always get exactly what I bid with Prefbid. Co-workers who bid 70%-80% have confirmed similar results.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Well, the most important thing is to continue to bicker about minute details while we slowly lose flying.

Well done....... I guess I'll See everyone at Gojets!! Maybe We'll fly the CRJ1000 together.

 

[CaribPilot]

LOLL

You guys arguing on the internet everyday over prefbid vs smartpref look hilariously ridiculous.

 

[Nevets]

Nevets,

I hear you and others arguing the functionality and logic of the 2 pbs systems...and I just don't get it. I don't see a big difference in the two. I know they think and process differently, but if the results are the same...or even close to the same...what's the big deal? (For both sides).

This is one of the points I have been trying to make. But I've learned that the word globalization is polarizing to many people on both sides. They can call it bananas for all I care, but in the end, all these systems will never give us everything we want until you are bidding number 1.

I am actually to the point where I don't care. I think we need to do one of two things. Either run both systems for a few months. Let the pilots try both and put it to a vote. Or we can just flip a coin and move on.

But here is my question to you (and it is an honest question). You seem to pretty familiar with both systems and are obviously pushing for the new pbs system. What are you seeing, not in logic, but in results that is so different? What are you seeing in results that makes it worth all the time, energy, and uncertainty?

Is our system giving you a 4 day over the weekend when the new pbs will give you 3 day or weekends off? What are we actually talking about? I have read your remarks about preserving your qol, just asking what specifically are you talking about?

Again, not talking about programming logic, but what have you seen in the results?

First, I'm not an expert on either system. I've read, watched, played with, and talked to everyone (on our said at least the last two) that's been put out there. But if you are of the premise that there is no big difference in functionality and logic in the end result of the two systems and rather that its just done differently, then that's a something we can agree with. But to answer your question, Smartpref doesn't award you just weekends or 3 days instead of 4 day trips. But smartpref will let you know what your seniority will hold before the bidding window closes, it will let you know if you are in the constrained group (the group who may be unstacked), and it will show you the results of that unstacking, it gives you a rough idea of what you can expect depending on your bid strategy and seniority before your line is awarded and final. Coming from our system with line bidding, where at best you may know that you will get one of a certain number of lines you bid (depending to your juniority), you could still try to improve it on the ILIW, smartpref is the only pbs that will give you at least some rough idea of what to expect since there probably wont be an ILIW. Its also a system which tells you what your line is within 15 minutes of closing so there is no waiting past the 2nd week of the month to know what you are doing. There is no subjective human manipulation. And there are other items that are good in general as far as the amount of information it gives. I'm probably forgetting other things as this is just off the top of my head.

What do you mean by this statement? I have bid 20%-50% relative seniority and always get exactly what I bid with Prefbid. Co-workers who bid 70%-80% have confirmed similar results.

What I mean is that if you are bidding 70-80% and asked for only trips that have been given to those senior to you, you won't get them. Now, if you are not specific, then it may award you a neutral trip. Both systems do that. Not everyone can get 18-19 days off for example, probably even if you are bidding 20-50%. On the other hand, if you bid 99% and only ask for low low credit, 4 day trips/long overnights on weekends, then you will probably always get exactly what you bid for as well so I wouldn't use that as a barometer on the award logic. Along those lines, how do you know if the 20-50% or 70-80% bidder couldn't have gotten something better than what they bid for? Or how do you know that the first solution of the 2nd, or 3rd, or 57th, or the one that lost the coin flip coin wasn't better than the first solution?

 

[www.]

Like I said earlier, it uses neutral trips, as you described. In either system, unless you bid #1, you are never guaranteed to get what you bid for.

When you say "either" are you speaking about SP and FL?

 

[Nevets]

When you say "either" are you speaking about SP and FL?

Yes, both. If the number one guy bids specific trips and the number two guy bids the exact same specific trips, the number two guy will not get them. Hence, unless you are number one, neither system guarantees that you will get what you bid for.