Liar

[LJDRVR]

Anybody looking for a laugh or to get P.O.'d, look no further than this thread on the regional board. You've got to read down about half a page when the original poster starts defending his lack of multiengine flight time by citing his military experience "Dropping bombs on baghdad in my F16."

Enjoy!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=46142&page=1&pp=15

 

[HueyPilot]

Interesting...he listed the types of a/c he's flown: C172, T-6, F-16. Must've done sh!t hot in the T-6 to bypass the T-38 and the AT-38. Not to mention he's a fast mover if he trained on the T-6, then flew combat missions in OIF, then went searching for an RJ job.

 

[Swede]

The point I think is this... SE vs ME. An F-16 is infinitely more complex than a Seminole or B1900. A 1.5 hour F16 mission has more real "flying" than a ATL-MIA leg.

All this assumes that the guy is not blowing smoke about being an F16 pilot.

 

[sandman2122]

But look..

But look........what kind of a job is this "fictious F-16 guy/gal" applying for? That's right, an airline job, where you don't fly low level sorties dropping bombs in a 737, RJ or 767 from ATL to MIA.

This debate goes on and on......I recently heard an ACP at my company compare flight time, PIC and experience into "you have to look at the difference between a C-5 guy with 8,000 hours flying long haul trips over the Pacific with the autopilot on vs. an F-16 or F-18 guy down in the dirt dropping bombs with only 1700 hours".......okay, but once again, isn't the company looking to hire someone to fly "long haul trips with the autopilot on" not to simulate dropping bombs from thier 727's??

In my opinion it's guys without commuter, corporate or military transport experience that have an uphill battle trying to justify their experience and qualifications to land a job.....non-tactical/fighter folks don't have to......unless of course the hiring board is made up of former fighter pukes...

Every company needs a good mix of pilots, I just believe it's an uphill battle for some while for others it's not.

Off to get some more coffee..

 

[sonofaeagle]

My belly is big fat and jiggly. Ow I bonked my knee.

 

[Swede]

Being an ex-fighter guy, I'm biased, but here's my take...

We are paid not to haul crap from A to B, but to handle the unforseen, the circumstances where bad $hit can stack up quickly, where sound judgement and strong situational awareness can save everyone vs. creating a smoking hole. Fighter/tactical types shine in these conditions.

I'm not Mr. FAR's, or Joe Systems god, but when things are burning, the hydraulics are failing, and the weather is down, that's when I'm strongest.

I've experienced both, the tactical world, leading a mission of sweeping fighters, flying my own jet and that of several others, and hauling crap to Tokyo. There is absolutely no comparison... the tactical mission is far more challenging in terms of overall situational awareness, dealing with the unforseen, etc, than making sure we don't have any trapped fuel in the tail tank, or dealing with the drunk in 5A.

A guy packs a huge amount of aviation in 1000 fighter hours. At a bare minimum, that's probably 6 to 8 years, 1000+ cycles in an unforgiving platform, dealing with some very challenging circumstances.

Fire away.

 

[milplt]

The difference (of course, everyone is an individual - but there are stereotypes that exist) is in which community produces pilots who are more likely to stay in the books. More importantly, who is more likely to get in the books when they start to feel rusty or the systems knowledges degrades a little. At the airline that I am involved with, that is a common problem that is dealt with in the training dept - and some backgrounds are represented more than others when you look back at the last couple of years worth of re-trainees.

 

[sandman2122]

It could come down to the individual. One who can adapt and is willing to learn. There are great pilots in heavies and fighters that are booksmart and have good hands, I've seen them.

I'm sure if you take a sampling from any airline that the re-trainees will come from all backgrounds......we all can have bad days......I just try to stack the deck and stay in the books........

Coffees' cold

 

[KarmaPolice]

"We are paid not to haul crap from A to B, but to handle the unforseen, the circumstances where bad $hit can stack up quickly, where sound judgement and strong situational awareness can save everyone vs. creating a smoking hole. Fighter/tactical types shine in these conditions."

Would you mind showing a little more respect for heavy jet guys? What you do is difficult and very important, and you don't need to denigrate our job to make yours look better.

As for hauling "crap" where "bad $hit" apparently can't stack up? Having spent a couple years flying tactical approaches into and out of the OAR to pick up and safely remove bleeding and wounded soldiers, I have to disagree with your judgements.

I have no doubt that fighter pilots in general make great airline pilots, but in making your case please be a little more thoughtful.

 

[LJDRVR]

I didn't want to start some tactical vs. airlift thread, I was simply pointing out an obsurd couple of posts where some lying sack of cr_p attempted to justify his low amount of multiengine experience (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) by claiming to have been "Dropping bombs on Baghdad in my F-16 while the rest of you were shooting touch and goes." This self proclaimed viper guy was claiming only 73 hours of mult-engine time. We were having a laugh at his expense, pointing out that between Phase III and IFF he would have about double that.

 

[sandman2122]

That guy was probably a "poser", flying an F-16 at home, on his computer....
He would get a lot of multi time in the T-38 & T-37, I logged all of my dual and solo as multi-engine (196 hours - to include some post-graduate Tweets flights!)

Maybe he flew the T-6?

 

[LJDRVR]

He added the F-16 and T-6 to his profile, but even a T-6 guy would have about twice the multi-engine hours he is fretting over in his posts. Check out the post, you'll see what I mean.

Your RV? Sweet!

 

[sandman2122]

Okay, Ill check.

Nope, that's not my RV4, I'm in the market to buy one this spring/summer......maybe that makes me an "RV4 Poser"!

I did put on the profile "wannabe".............I'll edit it to make it unambiguious.......

 

[Vandal]

And don't you need more than 1000 hours to qualify for an ATP?

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** regional forums...toolbags. IF you've been anywhere near the regional section of an airport lately and checked out the flightcrews you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

[HueyPilot]

I guess Herk pilots aren't "tactical", despite flying in multi-ship formations in the low-level environment, on NVGs performing airdrops. I get it...we're all just bus drivers. Never mind the blacked-out landing to a 3000' dirt airstrip out in BFE, dealing with MANPAD threats and small arms fire...you are right...us heavy guys only really have to worry about that ILS to a full-stop at the nice airports.

Fighter pilots have their work cut out for them, and I have respect for that. But realize that not all heavy pilots spend all their flying time departing the 13,000 foot concrete runway at KSUU, rotate 10 degrees nose high, put on the autopilot for 10 hours, and shoot an ILS to PHIK.

 

[JungleJett]

You forgot to mention without the ability too shoot back!!

Plus..we can take a crap if we want after eating the food we cooked in our oven.

We all need each other....


Huey, dont let this get to you. Some food for thought:

by a CMSgt.

Almost twenty years ago, the C-130s were traded to MAC because they were airlifters, not fighters. Now we hear that the lease is up and ACC (alias TAC) wants its toys back. The inevitable moaning, groaning, and heel dragging will go on for years over the decision, and you know what? It won’t change a thing.
Most of us who were in TAC and had ourselves given away to MAC are either dead, retired, or completely deaf by now. We felt we were unwanted step-children in MAC and not much was done back then to dispel that notion. So, what we did was dig our heels in rather than drag them and proved to the Air Force that we, by dammed (edited to allow this word, censors caught it), were Trash Haulers, not teeny-weenie airline employees. We wore the “Big MAC” patch on top and the “little MAC” patch underneath it; I still do. We didn’t whine about no coffee or flight lunches at enroute stops and we didn’t refuse to fly because our crew rest facilities didn’t have silk sheets and a whirlpool tub. We never did this job for the money or the comfort we could expect at lavish locations. When Desert SHIELD and Desert STORM were brewing we lost money, homes, and wives to the war (The wife loss turned out to be a pretty good deal for some of us, and in fact wasn’t much of a loss at all). We slept on a two inch thick foam rubber mattress, littered with sand, in a tent or 10 x 10 room, with people we wouldn’t go to the same party with in the States. We went where we were told and did what no one else would or could do because we’re good at it and everyone knew it. Grenada, Panama, Somalia, and Bosnia are other, no less important, credits to our accomplishments. We never pulled the trigger on anyone so we may not fit in well at ACC, but the lives we saved and the comfort we brought to others will long stand in the eyes of people around the world as pinnacles of the airlift legacy. We are not prima donnas; we just love our friends, our jobs, our country, and our friends. (That’s right, I said friends twice) Most of us believe in God and that He wears a flight suit and ear plugs, but not a scarf. I think He has been collecting crew members to open His own C-130 squadron for a higher headquarters mission early next century. I also believe that when I die, I will meet Him myself in Marietta, Georgia.
It all boils down to this my friends; ACC will soon own your body if it doesn’t already. Now, just as it was twenty years ago, all the heel dragging, moaning, and groaning won’t change a thing. We may be outcast because our airplane doesn’t sport a pointed nose and fly with the rear end on fire, but the Herk still holds the record for the biggest conventional bomb dropped and the biggest gun fired from an airborne platform. Remember, it isn’t the patch you wear, it’s the heart that beats in the chest behind it that tells you just who you are. It appears to be our destiny to declare over and over again that we, by dammed, are trash haulers. If we must, we will start at square one, again, and show the world just what we’ve got.

And the uber famous:

To LtCol Van Wickler:

Sir,

I am DJ Baker and I would appreciate it if you could tell me what it takes to be an F-16 fighter pilot of the USAF. What classes should I take in high school to help the career I want to take later in my life? What could I do to get in the academy?

Sincerely

DJ Baker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: VanWickler Kenneth, Lt Col, HQ AETC

Anybody want to help this poor kid from Cyberspace?

"Vee Dub"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear DJ,

Obviously, through no fault of your own, your young, impressionable brain has been poisoned by the superfluous, hyped-up, "Top Gun" Media portrayal of fighter pilots. Unfortunately, this portrayal could not be further from the truth. In my experience, I've found most fighter pilots pompous, back-stabbing, momma's boys with inferiority complexes, as well as being extremely over-rated aeronautically.

However, rather than dash your budding dreams of becoming a USAF pilot, I offer the following alternative: What you REALLY want to aspire to is the exiting, challenging, and rewarding world of TACTICAL AIRLIFT. And this, young DJ, means one thing....the venerable workhorse, THE C-130! I can guarantee no fighter pilot can brag that he has led a 12-ship formation down a valley at 300 ft above the ground, while trying to interpret a 9-line to a new DZ, avoiding pop-up threats, and coordinating with AWACS, all while eating a box lunch, with the engineer in the back taking a piss and the navigator puking in his trash can! I tell you, DJ, TAC Airlift is where it's at!

Where else is it legal to throw tanks, HMMWVs, and other crap out the back of an airplane, and not even worry about it when the chute doesn't open and it torpedoes the General's staff car! No where else can you land on a 3000' dirt strip, kick a bunch of ammo and stuff off the ramp without even stopping, then take off again before range control can call to tell you you've landed on the wrong LZ! And talk about exotic travel-when C-130s go somewhere, they GO somewhere (usually for 3 months, unfortunately). This gives you the opportunity to immerse yourself in the local culture enough to give any natives a bad taste in their mouths re the USAF and Americans in general, not something those strat-lift pilots can do from their airport hotel rooms!

As far as recommendations for your course of study, I offer these:

Take a lot of math courses. You will need all the advanced math skills you can muster to enable you to calculate per diem rates around the world, when trying to split up the crew's bar tab so that the co-pilot really believes he owes 85% of the whole thing and the nav believing he owes the other 20.

Health sciences are important, too. You will need a thorough knowledge of biology to make those educated guesses of how much longer you can drink beer before the tremendous case of the ****s catches up to you from that meal you ate at that place that had the belly dancers in some God-forsaken foreign country whose name you can't even pronounce!

Social studies are also beneficial. It is important for a good TAC Airlifter to have the cultural knowledge to be able to ascertain the exact location of the nearest titty bar in any country in the world, then be able to convince the local authorities to release the loadmaster after he offends every sensibility of the local religion and culture.

A foreign language is helpful, but not required. You will never be able to pronounce the names of the NAVAIDs in France, and it's much easier to ignore them and go where you want to anyway. As a rule of thumb: Waiters and bellhops in France are always called "Pierre", in Spain it's "Hey, Pedro" and in Italy, of course, it's "Mario." These terms of address also serve in other countries interchangeably, depending upon the level of swarth of the addresee.

A study of geography is also paramount. You will need to know the basic location of all the places you've been when you get back from your TDY and are ready to stick those little pins in that huge world map you've got taped to you living room wall, right next to that gigantic wooden giraffe statue and beer stein collection.

Well, DJ, I hope this little note inspires you. And by the way, forget about that Academy thing. All TAC Airlifters know that there are waaay too few women and too little alcohol there to provide a well-balanced education. A nice, big state college would be a much better choice. Good luck and see you on the SKE scope!

Maj. Hunter Mills

I guess Herk pilots aren't "tactical", despite flying in multi-ship formations in the low-level environment, on NVGs performing airdrops. I get it...we're all just bus drivers. Never mind the blacked-out landing to a 3000' dirt airstrip out in BFE, dealing with MANPAD threats and small arms fire...you are right...us heavy guys only really have to worry about that ILS to a full-stop at the nice airports.

Fighter pilots have their work cut out for them, and I have respect for that. But realize that not all heavy pilots spend all their flying time departing the 13,000 foot concrete runway at KSUU, rotate 10 degrees nose high, put on the autopilot for 10 hours, and shoot an ILS to PHIK.

 

[Swede]

Now where, ANYWHERE, in my post, did I take a shot at anyone? All I was doing was defending the relatively low-time fighter guy. Hours are hard to come by in that world. My point was a guy with 8 to 10 years in fighters probably will not have more than 1200 to 1400 TT, yet has the capability to fly at any airline, IMO.

Same as the herky, the buff, the C141 guy who has twice the TT over the same span.

Flying "crap" to Tokyo = total reference to my current job, not military airlift.

 

[JungleJett]

Now Swede...

You know how us airlift guys are...we are a little sensative! I love the fighter guys as long as you clear the route and airspace. We had A-10 escorts sometimes in the desert and that was always good for a warm fuzzy. We did have to slow down for them though....

Now where, ANYWHERE, in my post, did I take a shot at anyone? All I was doing was defending the relatively low-time fighter guy. Hours are hard to come by in that world. My point was a guy with 8 to 10 years in fighters probably will not have more than 1200 to 1400 TT, yet has the capability to fly at any airline, IMO.

Same as the herky, the buff, the C141 guy who has twice the TT over the same span.

Flying "crap" to Tokyo = total reference to my current job, not military airlift.

 

[Swede]

Sorry. I think this is a touchy subject for many, especially those with purely civilian backgrounds. I've seen posted again and again, "How can fighter aviation possibly prepare one for airline flying?" I thought I'd attempt an answer.

For a company to have an absolute minimum of 2000 TT, no exceptions is ridiculous. A military guy with a 15 year career in fighters may not be past that mark, and would be "unsuited" for the job, while some guy with a mix of BE1900, Seminole, and Caravan time would be hired. Either pilot would be successful. Flying time is not created equal, IMO.

 

[JungleJett]

I totally agree with you. The airlines need to take a closer look at those military folks flight time and its quality. We had co-pilots fresh out of the Rock doing NVG ops in combat. I think they could handle an ILS to mins in Newark. Not saying that airline flying cannot be challenging but it really cannot compare to the ops military folks are exposed too.

A friend of mine who does interviews for a major airline told me once about a guy who really taco'ed the sim check. After further review of his resume and his flight time (all military..and some "other" time) they hired him. He asked why after he had done poorly in the sim. They said based on his previous flying, that he was trainable. He was a former NASA pilot and had flown the Space Shuttle!! That was his "other" time!!!

Sorry. I think this is a touchy subject for many, especially those with purely civilian backgrounds. I've seen posted again and again, "How can fighter aviation possibly prepare one for airline flying?" I thought I'd attempt an answer.

For a company to have an absolute minimum of 2000 TT, no exceptions is ridiculous. A military guy with a 15 year career in fighters may not be past that mark, and would be "unsuited" for the job, while some guy with a mix of BE1900, Seminole, and Caravan time would be hired. Either pilot would be successful. Flying time is not created equal, IMO.