Let's talk spins......

[nosehair]

My CFI was happy to sign me off, but I wasn't. These were my first live exposure to spins and I wasn't satisfied that going up once was enough to make me comfortable.
Our students don't "get" stalls or steep turns or lazy 8s right the first time; why should we expect CFI candidates to "get" spins right away.

It was never intended that "one time" should be enough. The quality of training has degraded to that point. CFI applicants are getting their certificates with way too little training in spins. The endorsement is a lie.

I routinely require at least 2 spin flights. The first is me teaching. First, one turn spins to get over the anxiety, then 2 & 3 turns to get better oriented and confident and in control. But no more than 3 turns in a 152. Actually, it's very hard to keep it in a spin beyond 2 or 3. Then the CFI applicant takes me up on a different day and teaches me spins.

But the important point is that I don't sign off an instructor applicant until he has taken me up after a good briefing on spins and than actally shows me some good confidence building spins.

I'm in control of that - me, the flight instructor, by virture of my CFI and endorsement power. We are the controllers of the proficiency of our students - not the FAA.

The quality has degraded because we have let it.

You don't have to keep passing on the disease. Demand spin proficiency of your CFI students just like it says in the regulation that you are endorsing off on.

 

[mpflies2]

Spin training in the Zlin

I did my spin recovery training for CFI 2 days ago. I had previously done spin training for commercial in a decathalon a little over a year ago.

My spin training for CFI was done in a Zlin. This was a very fun airplane to fly. We got up to do the first spin...The spin was first demoed to me, and then it was my turn. What I found was that though on the ground I could spit out spin recovery in a heart beat, when it was time to do the real thing, I drew a blank. I put myself in the spin and reduced the power, neutralized the ailerons, opposite rudder.....and I couldn't figure out why I was still spinning.....Woops, forgot to push forward on the stick. Ok, so we're onto the next spin.....this time I did it and called out what I was doing.....ok, reduce...uh reduce...uh...umm....Everything was happening so quick that though I did manage to recover, I got hung up on my words and couldn't talk my way through it. So we did it again, this time I got everything in the right order. The problem on this one was that when I went to recover after breaking the spin and neutralize the rudders, I went a hair to far and past the neutral position, causing a snap roll and spin in the opposite direction.....Through practicing about 6 more, I began to get them down, but none were a "great" recovery.....all mediocre, but I was recovering and I was teaching it. One problem I kept tending to do was push the stick past my knees (full forward), instead of only to my knees, which was causing the airplane to start pulling negative G's and speeding up rapidly........

So what have I learned from all this? I technically recovered fine, and can spit this stuff out on the ground, but if this were to happen randomly in everyday flying, where I hadn't thought about what I was going to do right before it happened, I could easily blank.....Its not that I'm not good at it, but like with any manuever, things become more natural and easier to do with experience (One of our 6 priniciples of learning)...haha, and so I don't know if one flights worth of spins would be enough to have half the pilots out there be able to recover as soon as it happens...And lets face it, these often happen in base to final turns where you are prolly only 400 to 500 feet above the ground. Chances of recovery with only one days practice probably isnt sufficient.

This did lead me to say...man, we lose 1000-1500 feet in only a matter of seconds before we fully recover, how can you recover in the traffic pattern....so my instructor continued to show me a spin in which he completly recovered in 220 feet.

Then again, we were purposely not recovering until the spin was fully developed....whereas when he demoed the 220 foot recovery he didnt let it get past the incipient phase........

On a side note, he also demoed what happens when you recover to soon......

We recovered, and were still inverted. haha


Peace out!

Marc

 

[midlifeflyer]

Midlifeflyer: Thanks for your reply. As a CFI part of your authority is to teach spins to other CFI's. Do you feel comfortable when teaching spins to new CFI's?

Good question. I haven't taught new CFIs. I've been asked to but I only teach very part time and don't have the time that I think a CFI should be able to commit in order to teach a new CFI properly.

But I think I can answer your question anyway. Sort of.

No. As of this moment, I would not feel comfortable teaching spins. I have not practiced them on a regular basis and, frankly (my dirty little secret) they don't have the allure to me that many others find.

Were I to make the commitment to start training new CFIs, I would do either one of two things. Either I would either bring myself up to speed so that I did feel comfortable teaching them properly or I would farm the spin training out to a CFI who I knew gave quality spin instruction.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Mastery Of The Airplane

To be honest, it is probably true, as has been pointed out, that whether spins are trained or not, the result is no real change in accident rates. So why teach spins? The answer is the comfort that comes from a greater “Mastery of the Airplane.”

I have seen FAA flight test applicants that are terrified of stalls, especially when entered from a turning maneuver. This is because these pilots are terrified of the possible stall break. And from a turning stall, they believe this may be followed by the greatly feared SPIN.

I have also known students to confide in me that they are terrified of a forced landing because of a lack of confidence in their ability to successfully maneuver an airplane and land on a selected runway, even if directly over an airport.

Both of the above examples show a lack of confidence in that pilot’s ability or a lack of Mastery of the Airplane. But training in both of these situations will prove to the student that both the hard break from a stall or a forced landing over an airport can be successfully concluded 100% of the time as a result of training.

Every military in the world teaches their flight cadets a basic course in aerobatics to include spins and spin recover. This is true for pilot cadets that will be fighter pilots as well as those who will become transport pilots. This is because the military recognizes the important value of teaching Mastery of the Airplane.

To fly an airplane and not feel as the Master of the Airplane is to not fly at all.

 

[Elmer Fud]

Spin Training

I just love spins. It's also a good idea to get a little Conventional Gear (tail wheel) so may so may as well get a little aerobatic training and spins. I agree on a little spin training.

 

[MFRskyknight]

I just love spins. It's also a good idea to get a little Conventional Gear (tail wheel) so may so may as well get a little aerobatic training and spins. I agree on a little spin training.

I did my first spins the other day with an instructor in a 152, I thought it was a blast. Getting my tailwheel endorsement in a Taylorcraft now (w/ some spin training in that as well). Fun fun fun!

While I am over the anxiety of practicing spins, the thought of effing up on the base-to-final and hurtling toward the roof of Wal-Mart is pretty unsettling. Like other have said, it's really up to the individual pilot to seek out not just the proper training, but enough of the proper training to make recoveries 2nd nature. I think a thorough aerobatics course with a very experienced instructor in a less forgiving plane is a great idea.

MFR

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I did my first spins the other day with an instructor in a 152, I thought it was a blast. I think a thorough aerobatics course with a very experienced instructor in a less forgiving plane is a great idea.

MFR

The best airplane for aerobatics training is the Super Decathlon....

 

[Waldom]

Question to practicing primary flight instructors: How in good conscience can you solo a student that has not been taught to recognize an incipient spin and does not possess the knowledge to recover from one?

I am not a C.F.I., so for me this is an academic question posed to the folks with the most important job in the industry who are out there teaching every day. I know its easy to have an opinion when you don't have to face this complicated issue.

My mother gave over 10,000 hours of primary instruction and she did not teach spins unless requested or to a C.F.I. candidate. My wife also instructed at one time and she always taught spin recognition and recovery pre solo. Neither one ever had a student spin in.

 

[flyingnome]

during the pre-solo training most courses go over the "demonstrated stalls" including the cross controlled stall. when I am demonstrating this I will intentionally put the airplane into at least the incipient stage of the spin, with some I will let a full rotation occur.

after the demonstration I will have the student perform a "power on" stall with out using rudder controls which will lead to the incipient stages of a spin. Bringing the power to idle will correct this action and it is usually a good way of showing a student how to correct a bad situation very easily.

 

[Waldom]

Thanks, Flyingnome, for a clear and concise reply. I can understand how this would teach recognition and avoidance.