Lets have the names II

jborsdrf

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I want to know who signed off on scope relief allowing commuters to have jets to begin with. It's like nuclear weapons once the genie is out of the bottle proliferation is immanent. Here's to India and Pakistan having nukes and my "career" at Republic. The line in the sand will continue to move in the wrong direction in either case.
 

Salukipilot4590

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Al B. Shure
 

samballs

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I want to know who signed off on scope relief allowing commuters to have jets to begin with. It's like nuclear weapons once the genie is out of the bottle proliferation is immanent. Here's to India and Pakistan having nukes and my "career" at Republic. The line in the sand will continue to move in the wrong direction in either case.
I think we can look in DL's direction
 

N2264J

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I want to know who signed off on scope relief allowing commuters to have jets to begin with.
To answer your question, no one.

The conventional wisdom of Comair line pilot in the late 80s early 90s was that the fifty seat airplane we would eventually get would be the Saab 2000. 50 seats was the scope limit at the time on the airframes that flew Delta code.

Comair management and Bombardier conspired on the 50 seat jet to get in under the limit.

When the CL-700 became available, Comair put orders and options down on 90 aircraft. At the time, we were an independent company flying our own code in addition to our code share agreement with Delta. Comair ordered the 700s for Comair flying.

Before any of this can be fixed, ALPA will have to admit that basing a scope clause on the exclusion of airframes by seat number instead of the inclusion of pilots doing the flying is doomed to fail.

They won't. The dirty little secret is that the mainliners sell scope relief
to management for enhancements to the mainline contract.
 
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Captain Morgan

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I want to know who signed off on scope relief allowing commuters to have jets to begin with. It's like nuclear weapons once the genie is out of the bottle proliferation is immanent. Here's to India and Pakistan having nukes and my "career" at Republic. The line in the sand will continue to move in the wrong direction in either case.
I think you should get out of aviation all together. It sounds like you're going to be bitter and disgruntled. You should salvage what's rest of your life before it's too late. Just my advice, but you can do what ever you want. Good luck in whatever you choose and I wish you the best.
 

jborsdrf

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Thank you for your support, good luck getting those seat tracks covered and rudder panels painted...my prayers are with you.
 

HalinTexas

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To answer your question, no one.

The conventional wisdom of Comair line pilot in the late 80s early 90s was that the fifty seat airplane we would eventually get would be the Saab 2000. 50 seats was the scope limit at the time on the airframes that flew Delta code.

Comair management and Bombardier conspired on the 50 seat jet to get in under the limit.

When the CL-700 became available, Comair put orders and options down on 90 aircraft. At the time, we were an independent company flying our own code in addition to our code share agreement with Delta. Comair ordered the 700s for Comair flying.

Before any of this can be fixed, ALPA will have to admit that basing a scope clause on the exclusion of airframes by seat number instead of the inclusion of pilots doing the flying is doomed to fail.

They won't. The dirty little secret is that the mainliners sell scope relief
to management for enhancements to the mainline contract.
Wrong.

DALPA did it in 1996. They were getting lots of perks (offline JS) and a raise. I wish there was some press still around, but I remember reading that they didn't want to fly the jets. So, they gave the scope up, when it should have been tightened. When I was with TSA, TWA's scope was speed limited. I believe they could not codeshare with any operator in the US that flew aircraft faster than 375TAS.

I also remember talking to some AMR guys. They were saying the Fokkers were bought to put on another cert. with "B-" payscales. Eagle? AMR was next, then CAL. UAL with Air Whiskey, had a very specific exclusion, so there wasn't a whole lot of growth opportunity with them. Besides, they were flying BAe146's.

I would imagine that it was sold to the DALPA line much as it was sold to my group at ATA. We allowed the company to sub out 50 seat jets, although it never happened. It was sold that these jets "generate revenue." A big pile of it. And ATA-ALPA could take advantage of that in future negotiations to ensure a pay raise based on total revenue the company was taking in. There was no explanation as to why mainline revenue would be excluded in the this total. Sound like BS? I agree, and said so at the time. No one was listening after they saw the rest of the contract. Little stuff like that passes when there lots of other "goodies" in the rest of the contract. ALPA Nat'l is more than willing to accommodate to get a contract.

The concept of "RJ's to profitability" is marginal. It is that a 50 seat jet loses less money on given route than say a B737-200 or DC9-30, but market share is retained, frequency can be increased and it feeds the fat-boys (phat-boys?) going over-seas/int'l. There has never been a profitable stand-alone RJ airline.

There's camel sh!t inside the tent already. There's no going back. Those of you that are captains on an RJ should pretty much plan on staying there. The cut in pay, the loss of seniority, and the risk of furlough fodder in jumping ship really wouldn't be worth it.
 
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Captain Morgan

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Thank you for your support, good luck getting those seat tracks covered and rudder panels painted...my prayers are with you.
Thanks, I'm being sincere in my wishes towards you. I hope that if you're not happy with what you're doing you find happiness some place else. No bull$hit, I wish no ill will on anyone and that goes the same for people on here no matter how disillusioned and cranky they might be.
 

N2264J

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Wrong. DALPA did it in 1996. They were getting lots of perks (offline JS) and a raise. I wish there was some press still around, but I remember reading that they didn't want to fly the jets.
When Comair was the launch customer for the CRJ in 1992, the DAL scope limit was 50 seats - no mention of powerplant. That aircraft was built specifically to get in under the scope clause.

When Comair made the announcement, all the industry talking heads said
a regional will never be able to make money flying jets. But we did, hand over fist, and by the end of the decade, Comair was a major airline by the DOT definition ie $1 billion in revenue per fiscal year. Remember, in the 90s a barrel of oil was no more than $25. If I remember correctly, I don't think Comair had one unprofitable quarter in the 90s.
 

PuffDriver

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When Comair was the launch customer for the CRJ in 1992, the DAL scope limit was 50 seats - no mention of powerplant. That aircraft was built specifically to get in under the scope clause.

When Comair made the announcement, all the industry talking heads said
a regional will never be able to make money flying jets. But we did, hand over fist, and by the end of the decade, Comair was a major airline by the DOT definition ie $1 billion in revenue per fiscal year. Remember, in the 90s a barrel of oil was no more than $25. If I remember correctly, I don't think Comair had one unprofitable quarter in the 90s.


YAWN!! Oh the glory days of Comair!! It was so dreamy
 

makersmarc

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YAWN!! Oh the glory days of Comair!! It was so dreamy
Just curious Puff, where were you in the '90's? Did you ever buy any CMR stock?

Oh, and another thing: you left the three crying emoticons out of your post. What gives? ;-)
 

makersmarc

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When Comair was the launch customer for the CRJ in 1992, the DAL scope limit was 50 seats - no mention of powerplant. That aircraft was built specifically to get in under the scope clause.

When Comair made the announcement, all the industry talking heads said
a regional will never be able to make money flying jets. But we did, hand over fist, and by the end of the decade, Comair was a major airline by the DOT definition ie $1 billion in revenue per fiscal year. Remember, in the 90s a barrel of oil was no more than $25. If I remember correctly, I don't think Comair had one unprofitable quarter in the 90s.
I mostly agree with your assessment but would like to clarify two things.

Comair was the US launch customer for the CL65.

We were paid fee per departure, which guaranteed a profit. I remember having a MX issue in the Brasilia. The flight left over three hours late with no pax. Being a new captain at the time, I asked a senior fellow if it would be wise to submit an Irregular Operation Report (IOR). He asked me if the flight went out with the original flight number, and I said it indeed did. He smiled and replied that no IOR would be needed. I'm sure that things work the same at other fee per departure airlines.
 

PuffDriver

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Just curious Puff, where were you in the '90's? Did you ever buy any CMR stock?

Oh, and another thing: you left the three crying emoticons out of your post. What gives? ;-)
I guess I must be slipping.

In the 90s? Never bought any Comair stock. Worked my way through the regionals and then got hired by Delta. Nobody I have ever known grew up wanting to fly for Comair.

Oh, by the way, Delta wasn't the first to "cave" on scope. I will agree that we've done our share, but weren't the first.

And yes, the lifer regional guys are the biggest bunch of :bawling::bawling::bawling: ever.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Yep
Comair bought fuel with the PFT F/O money. AE effed everyone by agreeing to a 13 year no strike contract to get the 135's.
 

jborsdrf

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Thanks, I'm being sincere in my wishes towards you. I hope that if you're not happy with what you're doing you find happiness some place else. No bull$hit, I wish no ill will on anyone and that goes the same for people on here no matter how disillusioned and cranky they might be.
Hey man I hear yeah not bitching about my lot in life as much just lamenting about the general state of the industry...things could be a lot worse...like a line assembly employee at GM right now.
 

SpauldingSmails

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I believe Air Wisconsin operating the BAe-146 for United predates any CRJ operations for Delta. Also, quite a sizeable airplane.
 

Captain Morgan

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Hey man I hear yeah not bitching about my lot in life as much just lamenting about the general state of the industry...things could be a lot worse...like a line assembly employee at GM right now.
You aren't kidding. I just saw the story in the paper. What a bummer.
 
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