Less RJ flying in the future?

[RollinOnMy22sYo]

It wasn't that long ago that we were flying around in DC-9-10's that had the same number of seats and we were getting paid a hell of a lot more - and working for a major airline.

Yeah, and the same guys who gave those jobs away are now the ones pushing for age 65.

 

[Sticky]

Yeah, and the same guys who gave those jobs away are now the ones pushing for age 65.

Nice...

I love how the same guys who gave away the 50-60-70 seat market to the commuters are "suprised" to see pilots flying them. What other choice do we have? Do they expect us to find another career? If so, and things are so bad now, why haven't they either? Sounds like a serious case of passing the buck.

What really cracks me up is how the guys who were willing to drive around a J31 for 8 years at $30 bucks complain about the young "shinny jet" pilots. I'd bet if they had the chance to fly an RJ back then, 100% of them would be doing the same ******************** we are...for probably even less just to get out of the J31.

 

[eaglefly]

The one thing that alot of folks forget about is what else could cause the death of RJ's.

The bottom line is that there are more people flying than ever and the total number of large airports hasnt changed in this country in more than a decade.
If you started to build one today..you wouldnt get the first paying passenger to the gate for nearly 20 years.

No..It wont be pay..It will be the need to increase throughput with the current airport/airspace system.

The increase in passenger travel will continue to increase the pressure to have slot times at ALL large airports.Once that happens..The ONLY way to get more people in the system will be planes with more seats per available slot.

My guess is that anything less than about 100 seats wont even be allowed to operate at a slot controlled airport.

With the FAA already making noise about the airlines cutting back on the over stuffed schedules its only a matter of time.
Things like having twice the number of hourly departures scheduled during the first push or late afternoon push is gonna stop.

In order to move the same number of bodies per hour you need more seats with people in them.

So..The less than 100 seat RJ is a dead man walking.Its going to die for all the right reasons and those are the same reasons we all knew in the beggining.They are too expencive to operate per leg..And soon..They will be too expencive to operate per slot.

Its just a matter of time.

On the surface, that sounds great until you factor in the hundreds of smaller and medium size cities that can't support larger equipment.

Most cities need at least 4 flights daily in and out to justify a ground operation. Is SHV, MAF, CMI, CID, GRB GSP, etc. gonna support at least 4 narrow body jets every day ?

Doubt it.

There will ALWAYS be a need for samller aircraft and the frequency travelers demand to these cities. I think there WILL be a reduction in RJ ops over the next 5 years, but they will NOT disappear as some fantasize.

For that to happen, these cities would be left to the auto with high gas prices to drive up to several hours to the nearest hub...........and a lot of their politicians who must cater to those pissed off people will be none to happy.

 

[igneousy2]

What about the possibility of increasing the number of hubs?

 

[Thedude]

Sure RJ are great when used in the correct stage length. Not 2 hr legs

 

[Bellerophon]

Nice...

I love how the same guys who gave away the 50-60-70 seat market to the commuters are "suprised" to see pilots flying them. What other choice do we have? Do they expect us to find another career? If so, and things are so bad now, why haven't they either? Sounds like a serious case of passing the buck.

What really cracks me up is how the guys who were willing to drive around a J31 for 8 years at $30 bucks complain about the young "shinny jet" pilots. I'd bet if they had the chance to fly an RJ back then, 100% of them would be doing the same ******************** we are...for probably even less just to get out of the J31.

I do not know any former J31 pilots that flew in the commuters for more than three years. I do know quite a few RJ pilots who have flown in the commuters more than eight years. Back then we went in the commuters, built our time, then moved on.

 

[Sticky]

I do not know any former J31 pilots that flew in the commuters for more than three years. I do know quite a few RJ pilots who have flown in the commuters more than eight years. Back then we went in the commuters, built our time, then moved on.

Well sure, there has been good times and bad. There were times when one would only spend 2-3 years at a commuter, and there were times when 8 years was normal.

My point is just that many people sat in Dashes and other turbo props against their wishes, hoping for a better job. Sure, I don't like flying 70+ people around for $24K as an FO, but thats world that was created. It bugs me when the same pilots who voted away the 70 seat flying to the regionals to protect their own behind, are critical of those who fly them. After all, they would be doing the same thing in my shoes. What other choice do we have?

 

[Thedude]

Don't forget at Eagle back in 97-98 there were more than enough guys that would have sold their grandma just to get those RJs in property. They even signed a 16 yr contract to do such and least I dont forget to mention the trickel through to AA

 

[igneousy2]

There is plenty of blame to go around at Eagle for why they have the POS contract that they have.

It is a classic lesson in whip-sawing and the importance of unity and the danger of not having a single pilot group. Pilots are quick to point the fingers at pilots but don't try to find out what happened. We keep making the same mistakes over and over.

This happened right before I got to Eagle. This is what I gathered from private conversations with Eagle ALPA leadership as well as testimony from company officers and former negotiating committee members.

Eagle consisted of 7 (I think) different pilot groups. Negotiatons were going nowhere with management. Then management announced that the Eagle carriers would be getting RJs but which carriers and the quantity of RJ's would be determined by the contract that each of the carriers agreed to (there was to be one Eagle after the ratification, however, the contract needed to be ratified by each group seperately). Additionally, only groups that ratified the contract would be able to fly the RJ's. Meanwhile, AMR started overlapping the route networks of the Eagle carriers which up until then had all been geographically isolated for the most part. Remember that these were 7 different airlines with 7 different seniority list. They began to selectively expand certain airlines and contract other airlines depending on which negotiators were "being nice" at the table. For example, it got to the point where Wings West (LAX) was expanding it's new base at DFW while Metro (DFW) was contracting. There was a point where Metro was furloughing pilots that were senior to the pilots upgrading at Wings West. There was a large amount of distrust (still is till this day) between the pilot groups and yet, when the contract went out to vote the first time it got voted DOWN. Then, management put "the word out" that any group that did not acquise to the TA by a certain date would be simply hung out to dry (i.e. ASA/Skywest). The MEC and the negotiating comm. at that time only cared about the flow through agreement so agreed to put the TA up for a "2nd chance vote" at the same time so there was no waiting to see what the others would do. The 2nd vote was close, but the companies fear campaign coupled with the pilot groups inherent distrust of the "other" pilots cemented there fate.

ALPA national did not step up to counter AMR's fear campaign, nor did they do anything to stop AMR's tactics which many were clear violations of the RLA.

The MEC/Neg Com were mostly all very senior and only cared about the flow through. They would have agreed to a 100 year contract because they expected to be long gone within 2 years. All of the original MEC/Neg Com members flowed up to American except 2, one retired and one is still a CA in BOS (he was the junior member at the time) last I heard. During testimony at a grievance hearing a former committee member stated that they accepted a 16 year contract because "the company originally asked for 24 years, we were happy to get 16"...go figure.

AMR wrote the book on dirty tricks - and they used them all. The MEC had it's own agenda, and ALPA national only cared about trying to get AA into ALPA.

The rank-and-file didn't stand a chance.

 

[Thedude]

If I rememeber correctly, all of the various carriers that became Eagle were one carrier about a year before the contract was signed. We had a couple of guys come over from Simmons or Wings West because their upgrade went from about 3 yrs to 12 yrs