Legality of expired GPS database & DME

[troy]

Using an IFR approved GPS (KLN-89B), can the DME legally be used with an expired database? The local DE wasn't sure.

 

[Khirsah]

Not under IFR. AIM 1-1-21, Table 1-1-8 shows that you can use an IFR approved GPS for DME, but it "requires current database"

 

[Rick1128]

Your guess is as good as mine. First thing to note, is that the AIM is not regulatory. Despite what any FAA Inspector saids. However, many parts of the AIM are based on regulations.

You must insure that the information in used is current and correct. They may not be one and the same. That is why you will see airline crews consult their charts while they are programing their FMS's.

Most MELs have provisions to use out of date databases as long as the co-ordinantes of each fix are checked and agree with the charts.

 

[JediNein]

Also look at the STC, AFM Supplement, and Form 337 Paperwork for your airplane. I know three avionics shops that place a requirement for a CURRENT database on the IFR approval paperwork. With that restriction, having the database out of date means flight under IFR is NOT approved using the GPS data for any navigation functions.

The AIM might not be regulatory, but the FAA will bust on the "careless and reckless operation" regulation (91.23?) for those operations that attracted the attention of the Administrator in a negative fashion and were not in accordance with the AIM.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[avbug]

The MEL cannot authorize use of the GPS in Lieu of DME with an expired data base.

Advisory Circulars detail the specifics of this, but the AIM is quite accurate in it's explaination. The AIM represents a compilation of information from a variety of sources. A common misconception is that it's only advisory in nature, and this is not at all the case. Simply because something isn't spelled out in 14 CFR 91 or other parts, that doesn't mean it isn't regulatory.

Very often to get the full picture one must visit a number of sources, as each source only gives a small part of the picture. An example is owner maintenance...at least six different regulations as well as the airworthiness certificate of the airplane in question and the publications for the airplane are all applicable...far more than you'll find in Parts 43 or 91. In the case of the information contained in the AIM regarding the useage of GPS, you'll find a compilation of information which is all accurate and correct, and represents a gift to you. It saves you a great deal of reading and leg work. Rather than being suspicious of the AIM, be grateful and get to know it. It's a true and accurate representation of proceedures and policies found elsewhere.

Your MEL may authorize use of GPS in lieu of DME in the event of a DME failure above FL240. However, in order to meet this qualification, that GPS unit must have a current database. It also requires a current database for use in lieu of DME or NDB (ADF) fixes and reference during enroute and terminal operations. All approaches require a current database.

This isn't a unit specific requirement; it's universally applicable.

If you're operating under VFR, it doesn't matter...you can fly with or without a current database.

One can use a GPS unit for enroute and terminal IFR navigation with an expired data base if one verifies the information. However, one cannot engage in these operations and substitute the GPS for DME or ADF, without a current database.

 

[cessna_driver2]

I don't know how this applies to the DME aspect. But it is legal to use expired data base for enroute portions of an IFR flight.

Now if your using it enroute, you would be using the distance off the a certain fix. I would assume It would still be legal accept while shooting an approach.

Of course we all know what happens when people ass-u-me.

 

[avbug]

Again, one can fly enroute with an expired database, but even enroute, one cannot substitute GPS for DME or ADF, unless the database is current.

 

[TXCAP4228]

When you think about it, all you really get from it is the ability to fly an approach where DME is required.

There is nothing wrong with using a GPS for situational awareness if the db isn't current to help remind you to look at the OBS or HSI to verify an intersection, so long a s you LOOK AT THE OBS OR HSI. (Though I am willing to be put in my place by anyone more experienced with me who disagrees).

But on an approach where the only way to identify a fix is by DME....

Sure DME is convenient but is it really worth filing /A?

 

[ultrarunner]

My first question was "why would you WANT to fly around with an expired database"?

Or was the question posed by an operator that just doesn't want to spend the money on a subscription????

 

[TXCAP4228]

My first question was "why would you WANT to fly around with an expired database"?

Or was the question posed by an operator that just doesn't want to spend the money on a subscription????

The answer is that virutally all new Cessna's come with a KLN89 or 94, but most flight schools and FBO's never bother to keep the DB's current. It costs several hundred bucks a year per GPS.

If you never rent airplanes you'd never notice.

 

[FlySacto]

I flew with an FAA inspector in our flight school’s twin a few days ago with an almost new GNS430. I was in the right seat tasked with talking on the radio while he flew under the hood. We were pop-up IFR in VMC going to Lake Tahoe and he wanted to do the VOR/DME-A approach from the SWR VOR. He was unfamiliar with the gps and I was talking him through all the “buttonology” since it was mounted over on the lower left side of the panel and had him program for the VOR direct. Once he had it programmed it took me about 2 nanoseconds to tell him we were going to cancel IFR at SWR and proceed with flight following and a practice approach since we didn’t have DME or a current database. TXCAP4228 hit the nail on the head about flight schools and the databases. The flight school spent over 30k dropping these things into a few of the planes but hasn’t kept the databases current because it’s not “cost effective”. They dare not eat the cost or raise the rental rate because the majority of renters don’t care about the database as long as the pretty picture scrolls along while they fly.

FlySacto

 

[ultrarunner]

At the very least then, I would hope the flight school placard the things 'VFR USE ONLY'. It's the right thing to do and the SAFE thing to do.

Actually, the safe thing is to keep the DB current, since the tendency is for folks to use them anyway in the system.