Leaving ASA, & age 65

[~~~^~~~]

Using the numbers from airlinepilotcentral here are some of the numbers a spreadsheet analysis of moving on from ASA generated. My assumptions included upgrades within 2 years of the current low upgrade times at each airline, and the numbers began for a Captain with 7 years at ASA. At every airline I tried to figure out a percentage for all the available benefit programs, but my numbers may be low at FedEx since it is hard to make future cash value assumptions on A plan retirement programs based on 2% of FAE and years of service.

Time to break even on total pay and benefits:
Continental: 8 years
AirTran: 9 years
Fed Ex: 11 months

Total Pay and Benefits after 20 years:
ASA: 2,000,250.00
Continental: 2,985,343.60
AirTran: 2,753,214.60
Fed Ex: 4,293,187.50

Total Pay and Benefits over 25 years:
ASA: 2,541,000.00
Continental:3,966,277.60
AirTran:3,619,347.60
FedEx:5,769,750.00

The effect of age 65 on ASA's earnings would be $541,000 at current rates! But the effect at FedEx would be nearly $1.5 million in today's money. Wish Flightinfo's formatting would allow me to dump the whole chart in here for your perusal.

Since there are several airlines close to these airline's compensation structures hopefully this provides useful, relevant, information to anyone who is curious.

 

[GINCHBLASTER]

Wow cool info, thanks!

 

[Tarzan]

I would think the airlines would lobby very hard against raising the age. Even ALPA doesn't want it. How will this pass? And who is pushing this bill foward?

 

[BoilerUP]

And who is pushing this bill foward?

Folks who benefitted from mandatory Age 60 retirements for their entire career, but now faced with retirement post 9/11 are looking for a way to stay at their max earning potential as long as possible...to the detriment of younger pilots & furloughees everywhere.

 

[Dude]

It's amazing to me that ALPA doesn't want this approval. Even though their President has been more enthusiastic about the change than Duane Woerth was. It's the ALPA President's signature at the bottom of all of those concessionary agreements that make it necessary for pilots at certain airlines to fly past age 60. Without the erosion of benefits and pay folks could comfortably retire at 60 as done in the past. In my view, ALPA's long-standing approach to negotiations and hard-lining have made these circumstances a reality. Being unwilling to be dynamic and adaptive in less than stellar economic times have contributed greatly to this problem. It's not entirely management that is the source of the legacy pilot's position.

A pilot's earning power is greatly increased in those last few years and in a few cases, with specific airlines, it is well over the $1,000,000.00 mark. I am not necessarily excited about the possibilty of my upgrade time being extended by another year or two, but the overwhelming benefit in the long-term mandates that I look at the possibilty of what 5 more years can do for me, financially. It is not my intention to fly past 60, but I should be able to if my physical isn't in question. This rule is predatory and arbitrary and needs to be removed. If it stays in current form then all commercial pilots, ATP or not, need to retire at 60. This is the only equitable way to do it. How is a 64 year old Gulfstream pilot safer than a 63 year old 737 pilot?

This issue has personal ramifications for every 121 pilot. Therefore, the vote is a personal decision and mine is for age 65. I hope the day doesn't come when I need to start over late in life; but if it does, I would be hard-pressed to replace my earning power as an appliance salesman at the Home Depot.

The only side-note that I would add to this rant about saving the old-farts is that I believe that those already retired have missed the boat and cannot revlaim their position at their old airline with their seniority. This would cause some of the worst infighting that the industry has ever seen. Unfortunately, someone has to fall on the sword here and it shouldn't be active pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

Folks who benefitted from mandatory Age 60 retirements for their entire career, but now faced with retirement post 9/11 are looking for a way to stay at their max earning potential as long as possible...to the detriment of younger pilots & furloughees everywhere.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

Good info, Fins. It pretty much mirrors the same kind of spreadsheet that I've been doing for the past couple of years.

 

[ASADriver]

8 to 9 years to break even at CAL or AirTran for a 7yr. ASA Capt. under the current contract. Even some small improvements will move that number over 10 yrs. to break even. Maybe things aren't as bad here as some would like us to believe.

Fins, does that take into consideration the lost money over the 8-9 years or is that just the time it takes to break even for a given year?

Good info.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ASA Driver - I just ran a total of lifetime earnings starting at year 7 and going forward. I don't see the contract moving things on the chart because after you upgrade you are "off to the races" at any branded carrier. Further, they have negoting leverage within the brand and ASA pilots don't. So I added up the total pay and benefits nearest I could figure them and noted the time where the other options exceeded ASA's.

It made my eyes bulge out to see the difference in pay in Corporate and Cargo. The break even goes from nearly 10 years at an airline down to 10 months flying boxes or bosses.

I actually like the flying at ASA and the schedules in the past have allowed a lucrative side gig, but I'm not rosy on the future of non brand airlines and the CRJ200 type. I think the economics of putting a CRJ200 next to a 717 (even a 717 sans the screaming brat) come out in favor of the lower CASM. Throw in ALPA's continued attack on the RJ in general and there is really no reason for airlines like Delta to outsource once they get their operation stable enough to plan for the future.

 

[michael707767]

How is a 64 year old Gulfstream pilot safer than a 63 year old 737 pilot?

because a Gulfstream pilot does not fly the same schedule as a 737 pilot. I don't have any doubt that a well rested 64 year old can fly safely. I do have very serious doubts about the ability of a 64 year old to safely fly the airplane while dealing with an airline schedule......long days, short nights, multiple legs, eathing on the fly, little chance to work out, etc. I've seen it myself. The older pilots I used to fly with did fine on day one of a four day trip. By day four, their performance was definately dropping.

 

[rtmcfi]

It's amazing to me that ALPA doesn't want this approval.

It shouldn't amaze you. ALPA members made it clear that they do not want the retirement age to change. Why should the pres go against his constituents?

A pilot's earning power is greatly increased in those last few years and in a few cases, with specific airlines, it is well over the $1,000,000.00 mark. I am not necessarily excited about the possibility of my upgrade time being extended by another year or two, but the overwhelming benefit in the long-term mandates that I look at the possibility of what 5 more years can do for me, financially.

A pilots retirement fund will be much better served by investing more money earlier in life. Look into "compound interest". You will have more money at retirement if you upgrade sooner. The overwhelming benefit in the long term mandates you look into this, and oppose the changing of the age limit.

This rule is predatory and arbitrary and needs to be removed.

Predatory? How is that? The only people being predatory are those that wish to change the age limit, and try to sell it as a good thing to those that don't know any better. As to arbitrary, your desire to raise the age limit by 5 years is just as arbitrary.

The only side-note that I would add to this rant about saving the old-farts is that I believe that those already retired have missed the boat and cannot reclaim their position at their old airline with their seniority. This would cause some of the worst infighting that the industry has ever seen. Unfortunately, someone has to fall on the sword here and it shouldn't be active pilots.

Someone else has to fall on the sword eh? Your hypocrisy is nothing short of astounding. Everyone else should take one for the team except you. Stop trying to sell the young guys a bill of goods. Your proposal is damaging to them. Go clean your dentures.....

 

[ASADriver]

Thanks fins. Two more questions if you don't mind.

How long to break even for a 15 year ASA captain and did you assume that the 7 yr. ASA captain would move to the 700, or did you leave him on the 200 for your assumption? Thanks.

 

[Blucher]

Fins, this is very odd indeed. This is the same sort of stuff I frequently hear around the ASA lounge: "It would take me XX years to get back to what I'm making now if I went to Airtran." The problem with that statement is that it is incorrect. It would be correct if we were working under the same contract, but we are not. I know a 2nd year FO at Airtran who is on track to make with in $2000 of what he was making as a 7 year CR2 captain at ASA. It's not all about the hourly rate. That is a foolish way to compare. It is about the work rules. Also, the way you and ASADriver and beginning your little dialogue here it almost sounds like an "accidentally overheard" conversation between LJ and SH (aka: BS).

-Blucher

 

[ASADriver]

Fins, this is very odd indeed. This is the same sort of stuff I frequently hear around the ASA lounge: "It would take me XX years to get back to what I'm making now if I went to Airtran." The problem with that statement is that it is incorrect. It would be correct if we were working under the same contract, but we are not. I know a 2nd year FO at Airtran who is on track to make with in $2000 of what he was making as a 7 year CR2 captain at ASA. It's not all about the hourly rate. That is a foolish way to compare. It is about the work rules. Also, the way you and ASADriver and beginning your little dialogue here it almost sounds like an "accidentally overheard" conversation between LJ and SH (aka: BS).

-Blucher

Are you taking into consideration the $20,000 you lose in the first year of moving to Air Tran? Even second year in your example, I find it hard to believe that you can get within 2000 dollars the second year at 56 vs. 67 dollars.

 

[Blucher]

I'm taking into account their work rules primarily. There are quite a few people over there on reserve who are flying roughly 70 hrs/month while getting credited (paid) for over 100/month. This drastically changes one's W2. Go talk to a few of them, you might just be surprised at how much you can make over there when you know how the system works.

-Blucher

 

[ASADriver]

I'm taking into account their work rules primarily. There are quite a few people over there on reserve who are flying roughly 70 hrs/month while getting credited (paid) for over 100/month. This drastically changes one's W2. Go talk to a few of them, you might just be surprised at how much you can make over there when you know how the system works.

-Blucher

I have to call BS on this one. Would an Air Tran pilot please tell us how a reserve flies 70 hours and gets paid for "over 100/month". Blucher, feel free to tell us how this is possible.

 

[bailout]

I too am simply amazed at the number of captains ive flown with who would not go to Airtran because of the "it would take me x number of years to make what i am now" theory. Fins example says it all, look at the FUTURE potential.

 

[ASADriver]

I too am simply amazed at the number of captains ive flown with who would not go to Airtran because of the "it would take me x number of years to make what i am now" theory. Fins example says it all, look at the FUTURE potential.

Bailout, didn't you go to Citation Shares? Fins said that corporate and cargo are different.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Are you using AirTran in your example because it would mean staying in ATL?

I don't really have a feel for the work rules at CAL or AT, but as was mentioned previously, it makes a huge difference in take home pay compared to just straight pay like ASA

I know at SWA on 2nd yr FO pay my monthly take home pay is more than it was when I left ASA as an 8yr Capt.

 

[PCL_128]

I have to call BS on this one. Would an Air Tran pilot please tell us how a reserve flies 70 hours and gets paid for "over 100/month". Blucher, feel free to tell us how this is possible.

Airtran has a great pay system when you're on reserve. Your pro-rated daily rate is 3.75 hours a day (can't remember the exact amount, but just for example's sake). You get assigned a trip that credits 7 hours on the first day, 6.5 on the second day, and 4.5 on the third day. The difference in credit between the pro-rata 3.75 and each day's actual credit totals 6.75 hours. That 6.75 hours gets added on top of your guarantee, even if you don't go over guarantee for the entire month. It goes day by day. So, let's say this one three-day trip is all that you flew the entire month on reserve. You flew about 18 hours, but you're going to get paid 76.75 hours (6.75 hours above guarantee). It's a great system. Now if I can just get hired to take advantage of it.

 

[AV8700]

Airtran has a great pay system when you're on reserve. Your pro-rated daily rate is 3.75 hours a day (can't remember the exact amount, but just for example's sake). You get assigned a trip that credits 7 hours on the first day, 6.5 on the second day, and 4.5 on the third day. The difference in credit between the pro-rata 3.75 and each day's actual credit totals 6.75 hours. That 6.75 hours gets added on top of your guarantee, even if you don't go over guarantee for the entire month. It goes day by day. So, let's say this one three-day trip is all that you flew the entire month on reserve. You flew about 18 hours, but you're going to get paid 76.75 hours (6.75 hours above guarantee). It's a great system. Now if I can just get hired to take advantage of it.

I thought they stopped that?

 

[PCL_128]

I thought they stopped that?

Really? When?

 

[AV8700]

Well I'm not sure. I have a good friend that is a captain over there and I know a couple years ago he often credited over 100 hours on a reserve line, but I thought the company made a change. I'll check and get back.

 

[ASADriver]

Airtran has a great pay system when you're on reserve. Your pro-rated daily rate is 3.75 hours a day (can't remember the exact amount, but just for example's sake). You get assigned a trip that credits 7 hours on the first day, 6.5 on the second day, and 4.5 on the third day. The difference in credit between the pro-rata 3.75 and each day's actual credit totals 6.75 hours. That 6.75 hours gets added on top of your guarantee, even if you don't go over guarantee for the entire month. It goes day by day. So, let's say this one three-day trip is all that you flew the entire month on reserve. You flew about 18 hours, but you're going to get paid 76.75 hours (6.75 hours above guarantee). It's a great system. Now if I can just get hired to take advantage of it.

Wow, that is a great reserve system. Sounds like reserves at Air Tran have it better than line holders. IF this is true, then I think the line holders are getting the shaft. Why should a reserve get it better than a line holder?

Any Air Tran types want to confirm this reserve system?

 

[Blucher]

Wow, that is a great reserve system. Sounds like reserves at Air Tran have it better than line holders. IF this is true, then I think the line holders are getting the shaft. Why should a reserve get it better than a line holder?

Any Air Tran types want to confirm this reserve system?

Nah, just go on believing whatever makes your version of reality seem right, ASADriver and call everything else "BS." As per usual you, sir/ma'am, have missed the details, and therefore are once again incorrect in your conclusions. Ignorance is a choice, aren't you tired of it yet?

-Blucher

 

[Toecutter]

Wow, that is a great reserve system. Sounds like reserves at Air Tran have it better than line holders. IF this is true, then I think the line holders are getting the shaft. Why should a reserve get it better than a line holder?

Any Air Tran types want to confirm this reserve system?

Yes, the system is still in place. Think of it this way. On a given day, once you fly over 3.75, you are going above guarantee. At Airtran, there are a lot of days you are pushing 8 hours. Another good thing is that they can't "F" with your days off.

 

[wms]

Not to mention they have a lucrative retirement. You could retire at Airtran or most other large airlines at the minimum age and do much better than retiring from ASA at 60 or 65 with its poorly run 401k. Their health insurance is top notch and their schedules are better. And as mentioned all days off are hard days off and they have much better work rules. My friend there makes more as a second year FO than he did as the plug CA on the 700 at ASA. And at the end of his first year he was within 10k of my ASA earnings as a junior 50 seat CA. Not too painful to start, and much better off in the long run.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Airtran has a great pay system when you're on reserve. Your pro-rated daily rate is 3.75 hours a day (can't remember the exact amount, but just for example's sake). You get assigned a trip that credits 7 hours on the first day, 6.5 on the second day, and 4.5 on the third day. The difference in credit between the pro-rata 3.75 and each day's actual credit totals 6.75 hours. That 6.75 hours gets added on top of your guarantee, even if you don't go over guarantee for the entire month. It goes day by day. So, let's say this one three-day trip is all that you flew the entire month on reserve. You flew about 18 hours, but you're going to get paid 76.75 hours (6.75 hours above guarantee). It's a great system.

I ran my AirTran numbers at 1020 hours of pay a year. Sounds like if a reserve can average 100 hours a month, my Tranny figures are correspondingly low. Several AirTran FO's have said they made over 100K in the right seat. I don't see how, but surely they have better information on the subject.

It would seem anywhere that if the airline's name on your paycheck is the same as the name on the side of the jet you fly - you are much better off.

SWA, like Fed Ex and UPS pay enough to easily exceed ASA's CA earnings in year two.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thanks fins. Two more questions if you don't mind.

How long to break even for a 15 year ASA captain and did you assume that the 7 yr. ASA captain would move to the 700, or did you leave him on the 200 for your assumption? Thanks.

I used the 700 in year 8 in keeping with the upgrade within 2 years of when you can hold it theory, I know the ASA number is down to five years on the 700 on the last Prelim, but I was running the spreadsheet for my personal amusement.

Lets see, at year 15, an ASA 70 Captain would break even at AirTran, or Continental at around 10 months into their 10th year. FedEx moves to 5.5 years.

The only way staying at ASA makes sense is if there is an reason external to the job of flying (family, other business) or if you are an Instructor Pilot under our current agreement. For the IP's, ASA is not a bad career choice at all, but of course, you know that agreement is under attack.

Everyone seems to be holding their breat over the Comair situation. Delta has figured the bankruptcy court will let them really stick it to Comair and has moved downwards in their offer. Comair's pilots were in front of the Delta G.O. today trying to explain to the press that between ASA and them a total of 36% of Delta's block hours has requested a release to strike. Hopefully the message will get through.

 

[atrdriver]

Fins,

I'd like to know how you figure that it will take 7 years at CAL to get back to ASA pay. I left ASA at 8.5 years, making about 65K. I have a friend that is a 756 FO, 7 years (at CAL), making 125K. I will be back to my 8.5 year ASA pay on my 3rd year at CAL. Now as far as vacation you are right, but as far as pay goes, there is no comparison.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fins,

I'd like to know how you figure that it will take 7 years at CAL to get back to ASA pay. I left ASA at 8.5 years, making about 65K. I have a friend that is a 756 FO, 7 years (at CAL), making 125K. I will be back to my 8.5 year ASA pay on my 3rd year at CAL. Now as far as vacation you are right, but as far as pay goes, there is no comparison.

ATRdriver,

I think you need to take into account the lost money over the years, and I believe that is how fins spreadsheet works - he can shed more light on it. For example, as a 12 year ATR captain, I made about 90K last year. If I went to CAL today, I would lose about 60K next year. Assuming I go to the 700 as fins did in his spreadsheet, I can see how it would probably take about 10 years to get back to even. Over the next couple of years, I would lose over 100K and would have to make that back when I started making more. Until I made captain, my hourly rate would never reach par.

Hope all is going well with you at CAL.