msuspartans24
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leave regional for 91/135?
- Thread starter msuspartans24
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Mercury
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MSU,
This topic seems to be gaining popularity lately. Try the search function, you should find a lot of good advice and opinions. I personally made the move from ERJ CA to a Fortune 200 flight operation about 4 years ago and things have worked out great so far. Feel free to PM if you have specific questions and I'll try to help you out.
p.s. Your 121 backgorund looks real familiar to mine...Ya know some days I actually miss the mighty 1900.
:beer:
This topic seems to be gaining popularity lately. Try the search function, you should find a lot of good advice and opinions. I personally made the move from ERJ CA to a Fortune 200 flight operation about 4 years ago and things have worked out great so far. Feel free to PM if you have specific questions and I'll try to help you out.
p.s. Your 121 backgorund looks real familiar to mine...Ya know some days I actually miss the mighty 1900.
:beer:
msuspartans24
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svcta
"Kids these days"-AAflyer
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I made the leap a few months ago........I finally have a job I'm completely satisfied with. Leaving a steady-paying job is a little scary in the aviation biz., but that's the reason(one of them, I guess) that more guys don't pursue other jobs outside the airlines. This was one of the best choices I ever made.
Majik
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XSWANN@240
Watch this! hold my beer
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Most of my experience has been and still is 135. You should stay away from 135 except for a well establish fractional. At a typical 135 operator you will encounter no schedule, shady operation, and wondering how the company will screw you.msuspartans24 said:
I would suggest a 91 operator. The pay and schedule are usually better. The hard part is getting your foot in the door.
good luck,
Last edited:
XSWANN@240
Watch this! hold my beer
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It is the best move I ever made (part 91.) As previously mentioned, research your company first. Don't be afraid to ask them specific questions about policies, QOL or pay. Don't be anxious to take the first job offered to you either, wait for the right job for you. If you are asking yourself should I make the jump, then you will probably like it. There are a lot of pilots that would rather just have a schedule and not have other responsibilities in a company and they won't like corporate. But this "schedule" as I recall isn't that great, I remember trying to go home as "scheduled" and then being extended because they weren't staffed correctly and then missing my last commute home for the night and sleeping in the crewroom for 4 hours to get the first flight out in the morning. I'd rather be home almost every night and pick up a trip for the company at short notice twice a year because we are both working towards the same goal. But that is because I love my job and it is a good match for me. Good luck with your decision.
byei (former aca/flyi)
byei (former aca/flyi)
Raskal
big member, little pay
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As someone who is trying to decide which direction to go (probably the opposite of you) the only thing I can say is just make sure you understand the schedule (or lack thereof) fully and then assume that the operator will not abide by it and, just like any company, push the limits of their own rules all the time. Corporate may very well be the safer bet right now, at least in some ways, but small operators are legendary for sucking you and any lifestyle you have dry in the interest of getting trips done. Don't accept a job offer without meeting a pilot or two off site for lunch or a beer-it's worth the tab to get the real story.
Good luck
Good luck
Consider the following:
How many hard days off?
Callout policy (how much time to get to the airport)
Training costs - who pays, how much specifically (training, travel, and hotel expenses), pro-rated payback if you leave? Get it in writing.
Expenses - How much per diem
What type hotels (Hiltons or Motel 6)
Opportunity to upgrade if CA position opens up rather than hire off street
Rental cars when overnight
Who makes hotel reservations/catering/logisitics for pax and crew
Do you train on your time or the companies?
How do they cover for sick time and vacation (usually you have to make it up somehow)
How many hard days off?
Callout policy (how much time to get to the airport)
Training costs - who pays, how much specifically (training, travel, and hotel expenses), pro-rated payback if you leave? Get it in writing.
Expenses - How much per diem
What type hotels (Hiltons or Motel 6)
Opportunity to upgrade if CA position opens up rather than hire off street
Rental cars when overnight
Who makes hotel reservations/catering/logisitics for pax and crew
Do you train on your time or the companies?
How do they cover for sick time and vacation (usually you have to make it up somehow)
bman
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Ok here's my advice based on doing exactally what you're asking about.
In November of 2001 I left PSA after four years and an impending upgrade (I had finished class) to go fly for a part 91 organization that was local to where I'm from.
This is my first point: Understand that where you work WILL BE where you LIVE! Commuting not reallly an option and you will be spending an awful lot time there so you should like it. This can be good and bad. If you like where you'll be living life can get really good especially socially.
The job was stnadard corporate stuff. Typed on two fleet types captain upgrade came within months. Two hour call out, but since we were part 91 and a public company in four years I never recieved a call nor did anyone else in our op. What that meant was that on call days were really days off. Keep in mind these aren't days off in the sense of the airline meaning don't think four on call days are four days in costa rica, but if you live near the beach go if you hunt fish woodwork or whateve do those things.
I spent four years there and it was great! My social life was fab (imagine that having normal friends who aren't pilots and such). I did lotsa work on my house and my motorcycling hobby flourished. I also got in the best shape of my life.
I also go several type rating out of the deal. Which is like gold, because the difference between quiting or getting furloughed/laid off at an airline and corporate is if you lose your corporate job your experience and skill means something and people will pay you for it. At an airline its to the back of the line FO on whatever crapship nobody wants on reserve in base. Corporate your pay and benies will most likely remain the same and may even increase.
Also with corporate once you are in you are in. Contacts are everything in the Bizjet world!
Here are some drawbacks. Advancement is limited once ur the captain on whatever eq they have welcome to the top of the mountain. See that view?! you better enjoy it cause it won't be changing. Money= 3.5% raises as a standard. Gone are the projected in X years on X eq I'll be making X. What you start at will be where you're at for a while. (that means get your money coming in the door. if they want you they will negotiate pay!) You will throw bags from tme to time and serve food. You are the pax liason to their destination (primarily cause you are the one standing there) for better or for worse
My .02 cents if you're one of those guys who get a hard-on walking thru the jet way telling your friends your and airline pilot wearing a uniform and flying the "big jets" and going to the same 10 places every month stay away! You'll never be satisfied. If your motivations are family and being at home then corporate might work for you. I really don't endorse either one its a personal choice.
In the interest of full disclosure. I left my corporate job to fly 744's int'l, cause I look around at the top of the mountain and couldn't see far enough, but I still fly corp on the side and would consider a position there again if the right one came along
Regards
Bman
In November of 2001 I left PSA after four years and an impending upgrade (I had finished class) to go fly for a part 91 organization that was local to where I'm from.
This is my first point: Understand that where you work WILL BE where you LIVE! Commuting not reallly an option and you will be spending an awful lot time there so you should like it. This can be good and bad. If you like where you'll be living life can get really good especially socially.
The job was stnadard corporate stuff. Typed on two fleet types captain upgrade came within months. Two hour call out, but since we were part 91 and a public company in four years I never recieved a call nor did anyone else in our op. What that meant was that on call days were really days off. Keep in mind these aren't days off in the sense of the airline meaning don't think four on call days are four days in costa rica, but if you live near the beach go if you hunt fish woodwork or whateve do those things.
I spent four years there and it was great! My social life was fab (imagine that having normal friends who aren't pilots and such). I did lotsa work on my house and my motorcycling hobby flourished. I also got in the best shape of my life.
I also go several type rating out of the deal. Which is like gold, because the difference between quiting or getting furloughed/laid off at an airline and corporate is if you lose your corporate job your experience and skill means something and people will pay you for it. At an airline its to the back of the line FO on whatever crapship nobody wants on reserve in base. Corporate your pay and benies will most likely remain the same and may even increase.
Also with corporate once you are in you are in. Contacts are everything in the Bizjet world!
Here are some drawbacks. Advancement is limited once ur the captain on whatever eq they have welcome to the top of the mountain. See that view?! you better enjoy it cause it won't be changing. Money= 3.5% raises as a standard. Gone are the projected in X years on X eq I'll be making X. What you start at will be where you're at for a while. (that means get your money coming in the door. if they want you they will negotiate pay!) You will throw bags from tme to time and serve food. You are the pax liason to their destination (primarily cause you are the one standing there) for better or for worse
My .02 cents if you're one of those guys who get a hard-on walking thru the jet way telling your friends your and airline pilot wearing a uniform and flying the "big jets" and going to the same 10 places every month stay away! You'll never be satisfied. If your motivations are family and being at home then corporate might work for you. I really don't endorse either one its a personal choice.
In the interest of full disclosure. I left my corporate job to fly 744's int'l, cause I look around at the top of the mountain and couldn't see far enough, but I still fly corp on the side and would consider a position there again if the right one came along
Regards
Bman
Raskal
big member, little pay
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Well, since Bman and CJdriver were kind enough to make a number of excellent points I'll toss in a bit about some differences you need to be prepared for, and since I'm familiar with my company more than others I'll give you a quick overview. Keep in mind that EVERYTHING varies from operator to operator, unlike the very standard across the board airlines. Nothing is standard in the GA world.
Schedule: Here is mine, I am called before 1800est for a trip the following day of any length, no call means I'm "off" but on a 2 hour callout from 0700-1800. Pop-ups, as we call them, are few and far between and are refusable to a point, so a day off is a better way to call it. If I don't receive a call by 1800 friday than I am off until Tues. For the most part my company sticks to that, well, mostly. We have no hard days off with the exception of personal and or vacation.
Pay-Base+flight+wait. The base is minimal and is not enough to live on. Pay is wildly variable so this is just an example of one scheme.
Upgrade-no matter where you go this is based on company need, not time or experience. Timing is all that matters, getting in the door as a street captain is the way to go, otherwise don't bother thinking about it because it could be a long while.
Clients-be prepared to get more personal with pax than you ever thought possible...and these are the rich people, and they are mostly nuts. Getting yelled at from time to time because of any number of reasons is far from unusual. As with everything, some are great and some aren't, but you are the one who's there when there's a problem.
Expect to sign a training contract, in this day and age it is becoming more the norm than not, but if you dont have to obviously this is a sign that the job is good enough that the employer is not worried about turnover and people stay-a great indicator of a good career job.
Hotels, overall, are considerably nicer than what you're probably used to. Good thing too, since you'll be in them a helluva lot more on average. Just remember, 5 days in Cabo doing nothing on somebody else's bill sounds cool as hell, and it is in many ways, but it's still 5 days away from home spending all that time with another pilot, sitting. Trust me, it will get old, especially if you have a family and like them even a little bit.
Destinations typically vary widely, and that can be a lot of fun. Just remember there is a reason we crash more, be careful with whom you choose to get involved and check on the safety record as much as possible before accepting a position. There are a ton of great operators out there, definitely more good than bad, but there's a lot of yahoos too.
So, in summary, keep in mind this is only one example and every one of those I gave can be vastly different at any company, but it'll give you an idea. If the "hard" schedule apppeals to you, or if turning left and shutting the door, doing your job and going home are important to you, than corporate might not be what you want. If that doesn't matter as much as other things, than it can be great.
Again, good luck.
PS-Do you have a Mich connection? That's where I'm at and would be happy to give you a heads up in the area or help in any other way (that's what corporate's really all about
)
Schedule: Here is mine, I am called before 1800est for a trip the following day of any length, no call means I'm "off" but on a 2 hour callout from 0700-1800. Pop-ups, as we call them, are few and far between and are refusable to a point, so a day off is a better way to call it. If I don't receive a call by 1800 friday than I am off until Tues. For the most part my company sticks to that, well, mostly. We have no hard days off with the exception of personal and or vacation.
Pay-Base+flight+wait. The base is minimal and is not enough to live on. Pay is wildly variable so this is just an example of one scheme.
Upgrade-no matter where you go this is based on company need, not time or experience. Timing is all that matters, getting in the door as a street captain is the way to go, otherwise don't bother thinking about it because it could be a long while.
Clients-be prepared to get more personal with pax than you ever thought possible...and these are the rich people, and they are mostly nuts. Getting yelled at from time to time because of any number of reasons is far from unusual. As with everything, some are great and some aren't, but you are the one who's there when there's a problem.
Expect to sign a training contract, in this day and age it is becoming more the norm than not, but if you dont have to obviously this is a sign that the job is good enough that the employer is not worried about turnover and people stay-a great indicator of a good career job.
Hotels, overall, are considerably nicer than what you're probably used to. Good thing too, since you'll be in them a helluva lot more on average. Just remember, 5 days in Cabo doing nothing on somebody else's bill sounds cool as hell, and it is in many ways, but it's still 5 days away from home spending all that time with another pilot, sitting. Trust me, it will get old, especially if you have a family and like them even a little bit.
Destinations typically vary widely, and that can be a lot of fun. Just remember there is a reason we crash more, be careful with whom you choose to get involved and check on the safety record as much as possible before accepting a position. There are a ton of great operators out there, definitely more good than bad, but there's a lot of yahoos too.
So, in summary, keep in mind this is only one example and every one of those I gave can be vastly different at any company, but it'll give you an idea. If the "hard" schedule apppeals to you, or if turning left and shutting the door, doing your job and going home are important to you, than corporate might not be what you want. If that doesn't matter as much as other things, than it can be great.
Again, good luck.
PS-Do you have a Mich connection? That's where I'm at and would be happy to give you a heads up in the area or help in any other way (that's what corporate's really all about
)Raskal, good summary. Elaboration on some points he made:
Upgrade - I agree, do not sign up in hopes of upgrade, it may never happen.
Pax - I had one come up behind me while I was fueling with the APU running and yell at me because he got bumped for another owner. Had to compose myself a little before I responded to him. Can't say I've had anyone yell at me before, ever.
Training - I had a company claim they paid x for my training, and I happened to know they paid x minus a discount. I didn't push the issue when I left for a much higher paying non-aviation job. I didn't want to get into a pizzing match.
The days off was the clincher. I was told the schedule was one way, and found it was another.
Watch out, once you sign up, your azz is their's until you find something else, which I did.
Upgrade - I agree, do not sign up in hopes of upgrade, it may never happen.
Pax - I had one come up behind me while I was fueling with the APU running and yell at me because he got bumped for another owner. Had to compose myself a little before I responded to him. Can't say I've had anyone yell at me before, ever.
Training - I had a company claim they paid x for my training, and I happened to know they paid x minus a discount. I didn't push the issue when I left for a much higher paying non-aviation job. I didn't want to get into a pizzing match.
The days off was the clincher. I was told the schedule was one way, and found it was another.
Watch out, once you sign up, your azz is their's until you find something else, which I did.
AA717driver
A simpler time...
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Raskal said:
Yup. Pretty much sums it up.
"The hand towels are hung improperly", "I can't find the hook on my LV bag, I think the FA stole it", "Not Evian, Volvic (or Penta, or Granny Smith's Mint water or whatever EVERYONE who is ANYONE is drinking this week)", stareing at $1000 of catering they told you to order--"Oh, we just brought food from the house" (then getting chewed because you tipped over 15% at a nice restaurant)...etc.
Sometimes you feel like you are Alice after she stepped through the looking glass.
TC
Fly'nBuff
Member
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Leaving 121 for 91/135 can be a mixed bag, but I did it just over 3 years ago. I left ACA just before UAL dumped us and I felt pretty good about my decision. The first 2 years of my 91 gig were golden. I flew about 15-20 hours a month and cashed the checks. All kinds of free time and was home almost every night. We had nice hotels, everything was paid for, and full medical benefits. I was hoping corporate flying would provide some variety in my schedule, but we seemed to go to the same places over and over. I got some PIC turbine time and I felt pretty smart especially once Independence Air didn't go the distance.
That's the good stuff, but the winds have shifted. My boss can't come up with payroll anymore and the airplane is now gone. I'm in the hunt for a new job, but my recency of flight experience is lacking. I would caution you to check out your job offers and be very wary of a start up 91 operation. My boss had too much money and no enough "cents", and now I'm paying for it. Do I regret the move? Well, yes and no. I've learned a lot about life and I had a good bit of fun while doing it, but the bills are adding up and I don't have a steady check. There are al kinds of different flight departments out there and I'm sure you can find one that meets your needs. Do your homework and you'll be fine.
Best o' luck to ya
FnB
That's the good stuff, but the winds have shifted. My boss can't come up with payroll anymore and the airplane is now gone. I'm in the hunt for a new job, but my recency of flight experience is lacking. I would caution you to check out your job offers and be very wary of a start up 91 operation. My boss had too much money and no enough "cents", and now I'm paying for it. Do I regret the move? Well, yes and no. I've learned a lot about life and I had a good bit of fun while doing it, but the bills are adding up and I don't have a steady check. There are al kinds of different flight departments out there and I'm sure you can find one that meets your needs. Do your homework and you'll be fine.
Best o' luck to ya
FnB
bman
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Okay,
we should point out some differences from 135/91 and corporate flying. They aren't the same. Corporate usually means working for a corporation and I would say in my experience the things mentioned in the previous couple of post are a rarity and will be checked by you Department manager if hes worth a d@mn!
My pay checks in corporate were ALWAYS good and on time! Bonuses happened almost every year. If you work for Toyota, Chevron, P&G, or any number of a the listed fortue 500 gigs out there which are attainable. Your lifestyle will be better than the average commuter pilot captain or other wise and the forementioned BS won't happen to you.
I don't have a bias either way (as my job choices indicate). Just make sure whatever you do is going to position you forward. Type ratings are an invaluable thing. For instance if you went someplace and managed to get a G-bang type or a falcon type you could live off contracting alone making 850-1500/ day. That's the best job in the universe, trust me!
just my .02
G100driver chime in here anytime buddy!
Bman
we should point out some differences from 135/91 and corporate flying. They aren't the same. Corporate usually means working for a corporation and I would say in my experience the things mentioned in the previous couple of post are a rarity and will be checked by you Department manager if hes worth a d@mn!
My pay checks in corporate were ALWAYS good and on time! Bonuses happened almost every year. If you work for Toyota, Chevron, P&G, or any number of a the listed fortue 500 gigs out there which are attainable. Your lifestyle will be better than the average commuter pilot captain or other wise and the forementioned BS won't happen to you.
I don't have a bias either way (as my job choices indicate). Just make sure whatever you do is going to position you forward. Type ratings are an invaluable thing. For instance if you went someplace and managed to get a G-bang type or a falcon type you could live off contracting alone making 850-1500/ day. That's the best job in the universe, trust me!
just my .02
G100driver chime in here anytime buddy!
Bman
Fly'nBuff
Member
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Bman is totally right. There are some great jobs in the corporate world, my situation sucked, so I'm moving on. I only caution you in hopes that you learn from my mistakes. That's all, nothing more. Good luck finding a solid gig, I'm sure you'll be much happier once it's all said and done.
FnB
FnB
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