Learn from history part 2

[JoeMerchant]

ASA pilots, the Great Lakes pilots have been in contract negotiations for 6 years now. They voted to strike 3 years ago. The NMB continues to hold them in recess.

Great Lakes Pilots Unanimously Approve Strike Authorization

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March 12, 2003 Great Lakes Aviation pilots recently made their stance clear when the 250 members of Local 747 unanimously voted in favor of a strike if future contract negotiations do not produce positive results. Strike authorization votes were counted and validated at the offices of the local in Houston late February.
The Teamsters and Great Lakes Aviation have been involved in negotiations for two years with little movement made at the table.
“These hardworking pilots deserve industry standard wages at the very least, plus improved medical benefits and fair scheduling practices,” said Bruce Perkins, President of Local 747.
Negotiations are set to resume March 17-20 in Denver. Unless an acceptable contract is reached, the strike will take place if and when released by the National Mediation Board in conformity with Railway Labor Act procedures.
The Cheyenne, Wyoming-based company operates in the Rocky Mountains and Upper Midwest regions of the United States.

 

[atrdriver]

And yet, on August 17, 2005, the NMB released the Polar Air pilots. The Polar pilots were ALPA, and the Great Lakes pilots are Teamsters. Maybe the NMB decided that the Teamsters didn't have enough experience with airline contracts.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And yet, on August 17, 2005, the NMB released the Polar Air pilots. The Polar pilots were ALPA, and the Great Lakes pilots are Teamsters. Maybe the NMB decided that the Teamsters didn't have enough experience with airline contracts.

The NMB looks at lots of things. The main thing they look at is preventing a disruption of interstate air commerce. An ASA strike would likely kill Delta and disrupt interstate air commerce significantly. As the Great Lakes case shows, a strike vote doesn't mean you get to strike.

 

[atrdriver]

The NMB looks at lots of things. The main thing they look at is preventing a disruption of interstate air commerce. An ASA strike would likely kill Delta and disrupt interstate air commerce significantly. As the Great Lakes case shows, a strike vote doesn't mean you get to strike.

And as the Polar case shows, a strike vote doesn't mean that you don't get to strike either. Maybe we get released, maybe we won't. Either way, I don't see a good reason to give money from my pocket so it can go into managements pocket. We are not talking about losing the DAL contract here Joe, we are talking about what the final profit margin turns out to be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And as the Polar case shows, a strike vote doesn't mean that you don't get to strike either. Maybe we get released, maybe we won't. Either way, I don't see a good reason to give money from my pocket so it can go into managements pocket. We are not talking about losing the DAL contract here Joe, we are talking about what the final profit margin turns out to be.

Were talking about Jerry shifting assets to SKYW. He isn't going to give into ALPA as that would probably send the ALPA vote over the top at SKYW. He doesn't want the SKYW pilots to organize. He can send a powerful message to his pilots if we don't get what we are asking for and our assets are shifted to SKYW. We could lose a lot more if we continue down the current path.

 

[asapilot]

Joe-

I don't post much here because this place sends my blood pressure through the roof, but I figure I might as well jump in the fray. So...

I don't agree with your personal agenda and I don't agree with your holding a position in the Union you refuse to support. However, I don't disagree with all the things you say here or all your positions regarding ALPA National. So, I ask you, what is your solution to the problem we face NOW here at ASA?

You've already made clear your belief that ALPA's problems start at the top. I don't think many people will disagree with you that ALPA has not be effective in fairly representing all of its member airlines. I also think we all agree that effective scope would be great to protect ourselves as more and more alter-egos are created and more regionals are forced into cuts. Having said all that, what do you think we should do about it in relation to our current negotiations?

We are negotiating our place in the industry, but we're also negotiating how we're going to keep our own house in order. How does effective scope keep up from incompetent schedulers? How does effective scope provide us with dispatchers who don't spend their shift playing solitaire and surfing eBay? How does effective scope keep us from a management team filled with two-faced liars who wouldn't pass up a chance to bend us over? You might argue that we've already TA'd our scheduling section and thing wil get better someday, but what do you think we should give up in order to get to that "someday?" You've stated that we're not going to get the Scope we want because of ALPA National politics, so why shouldn't we get every other QOL issue we can get our hands on to try and make things as good as they can be? Your idea of Scope here at ASA seems to be advocating giving in on the pay issue in order to "keep" some airplanes that we "might" lose to Skywest.

So, I get what your problem is with ALPA National, but what is your solution here at ASA, here at home? Do you really, honestly believe that if we give the company what they want in terms of pay we'll suddenly be in a great position for "growth opportunities?" Do you really think that pilot pay is what's going to make or break ASA? Where is the "line" for you? Sometimes ASA doesn't seem that bad when you''ve got some seniority, but I'm not going to hang everyone behind me out to dry and I'd hope you wouldn't either. You're so worried about Herndon, you don't seem to care about what's happening right here except that maybe you won't get to fly the -900 someday.

My bottom line? ASA sucks. It sucks bad. If ALPA National's agenda doesn't agree with ours, well let's work on that. But right now this place has got to change. This isn't about the RJDC. This isn't about what the Delta MEC could have done 7 years ago. This is about not being ashamed to tell your friends you work at ASA. This is about not having to explain the 8 hour rule to scheduling when they try to extend you after you've already flown 7.5 hours. This is about 1st year F/Os not having to live 6 to an apartment to afford it. Maybe you don't hear about these things on a regular basis, but as an ALPA member who actually works in my role to support my volunteer position, I hear about them everyday. This place is a disgrace and it's an insult to every pilot here who busts his/her butt daily to hold it together each day these negotiations drag on.

Please, tell us just what we're to do to make things right. I agree that current scope isn't cutting it. But, if National's not going to give it to us, do you really think caving to the company's will and believing everything they tell us will? This isn't meant as an attack, I really want to know what you think we should/could be doing.

(I apologize to the rest of you who may have gone cross-eyed reading this)

 

[atrdriver]

Were talking about Jerry shifting assets to SKYW. He isn't going to give into ALPA as that would probably send the ALPA vote over the top at SKYW. He doesn't want the SKYW pilots to organize. He can send a powerful message to his pilots if we don't get what we are asking for and our assets are shifted to SKYW. We could lose a lot more if we continue down the current path.

And tell me Joe, since you haven't yet, what is going to stop Jerry from shifting our assets to SKW anyway? Let's say we do what you want and sign a concessionary contract. There is still nothing from stopping him from taking our airplanes. And there is nothing protecting his pilots from having all their assets transferred to us if he chooses. Yes, I believe that one list between our groups is the way to go, and I have stated that in the past. But there is no incentive for him to combine us, and as long as there isn't an incentive, he isn't going to do it.

 

[ex j-41]

I am not very edumacated but people (management) need to be scared walking out to their cars!

 

[COOPERVANE]

Great post ASAPILOT.

Once again the most intelligent insightful people seem to open their mouth only when appropriate. Unlike the 1000+ posters

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Joe-

The situation at GLA is vastly different than it is at ASA. GLA flies EAS routes that are paid by Uncle Sam. ASA is paid by Delta. Before you say there is no difference allow me to open your eyes. Profit margin on an EAS contract given todays fuel prices is razor thin. The NMB recognized that to release the GLA pilots when they were so far apart on pay issues would result in a strike that would shut GLA down in less than a day. Since that would disrupt EAS service, the NMB proceeded to do what we see today...nothing.

At ASA, our profit margin is higher because Delta pays us more than Uncle Sam. That is because we are going to higher revenue cities and carrying more poeple than the EAS cities.

GLA gets paid to go irrespective of filling seats; whereas, ASA gets paid to go only if they can fill seats.

 

[~~~^~~~]

And tell me Joe, since you haven't yet, what is going to stop Jerry from shifting our assets to SKW anyway? .... And there is nothing protecting his pilots from having all their assets transferred to us if he chooses. Yes, I believe that one list between our groups is the way to go, and I have stated that in the past. But there is no incentive for him to combine us, and as long as there isn't an incentive, he isn't going to do it.

Ideas:

• One list - good, but not perfect if the airline can start another Certificate (6oJets)
• Single seniority list across all certificates held by the parent company (I believe this is how Chautauqua / Republic / Mid Atlantic works)
• Employment Rights and Furlough Protection - pilots go with airplanes, if airplanes get transferred, so do the corresponding number of pilots with seniority integration (Pan Am - Delta)

Again, the key to any of these working is the agreeent binding the parent holding company.

In my view - if the ASA CNC made scope agenda item #1, as it should be in any contract, the Skywest pilots would be much more interested in joining ALPA so they have a seat at the table when we are dividing up future growth. Also, if we have flying locked in, then we are in a stronger position to negotiate pay rates.

 

[atrdriver]

Ideas:

• One list - good, but not perfect if the airline can start another Certificate (6oJets)
• Single seniority list across all certificates held by the parent company (I believe this is how Chautauqua / Republic / Mid Atlantic works)
• Employment Rights and Furlough Protection - pilots go with airplanes, if airplanes get transferred, so do the corresponding number of pilots with seniority integration (Pan Am - Delta)

Again, the key to any of these working is the agreeent binding the parent holding company.

In my view - if the ASA CNC made scope agenda item #1, as it should be in any contract, the Skywest pilots would be much more interested in joining ALPA so they have a seat at the table when we are dividing up future growth. Also, if we have flying locked in, then we are in a stronger position to negotiate pay rates.

I agree that we should have a single list across all carriers operated by the holding company. Which doesn't stop them from starting a new holding company. Nor is there any incentive for JA to negotiate this, just as there was no incentive for DAL to combine us and CMR. What would you be willing to give up to get this? Fly for Mesa wages? A 16 year contract? Yes it is best for us, which is why management, if they are willing to negotiate for it at all, is going to make us pay dearly for it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that we should have a single list across all carriers operated by the holding company. Yes it is best for us, which is why management, if they are willing to negotiate for it at all, is going to make us pay dearly for it.

We will pay dearly for it one way or another. Collective bargaining does not work with multiple parties competing for the same work.

 

[Just Cause]

I am not very edumacated but people (management) need to
be scared walking out to their cars!

I agree things need to get serious. Nothing else seems to get through peoples (managements) heads.

 

[Crash Pad]

I think GLA just came out of binding arbitration. Why do I have a hunch ASA doesn't want to go that road?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Great post ASAPilot. I put Joe on my ignore list. I'm not a big union guy, but I'm pi$$ed off at the company for $crewing pilots. Joe is more anti union than wanting to help the pilot group. Yeah ALPA is not the best. Pilots vs Management. I'll stick with the pilots and their representation.

 

[asapilot]

What say you Joe?

I see that Joe has not taken the time to reply to my questions though he has chosen easy responses to other posts on this thread. I can only imagine it was an oversight on his part, so I'll bump this back up to the top in hopes that he'll enlighten us with his master plan.

Really Joe, I want to know how you'd solve our issues here at ASA. Your fight with National via the RJDC has no bearing on ASA's management faults or QOL issues here. It appears you'd rather sell 1800 of your 'brothers' down the river if it would give you a better shot at "winning" something back from the Delta MEC. I hope that's not the case, but you've not as yet offered any meaningful solutions to ASA issues.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe-

I don't agree with your personal agenda and I don't agree with your holding a position in the Union you refuse to support. However, I don't disagree with all the things you say here or all your positions regarding ALPA National. So, I ask you, what is your solution to the problem we face NOW here at ASA?

I don't have a "personal agenda". I simply don't think the current approach is working. I don't "refuse" to support the union, I think it is refusing to support us. The solution to the problem we face NOW here at ASA is different depending on who you ask. I don't think ASA ALPA can "jack the house up" without the support of ALPA national and a truly unified national pilot group and true "brand scope" or "inclusive scope". Absent a national or brand solution, we at ASA can either participate in the bidding process or not. I would chose to participate and live to fight another day. Some would rather burn the place down. I don't think that will solve the problem.

You've already made clear your belief that ALPA's problems start at the top. I don't think many people will disagree with you that ALPA has not be effective in fairly representing all of its member airlines. I also think we all agree that effective scope would be great to protect ourselves as more and more alter-egos are created and more regionals are forced into cuts. Having said all that, what do you think we should do about it in relation to our current negotiations?

I think we should try and achieve a single list with the Skywest pilots at any cost. Otherwise, we will simply make the same mistake that others have made. I don't care about the rest of the contract if our jobs can be shifted over to Skywest.

We are negotiating our place in the industry, but we're also negotiating how we're going to keep our own house in order. How does effective scope keep up from incompetent schedulers? How does effective scope provide us with dispatchers who don't spend their shift playing solitaire and surfing eBay? How does effective scope keep us from a management team filled with two-faced liars who wouldn't pass up a chance to bend us over? You might argue that we've already TA'd our scheduling section and thing wil get better someday, but what do you think we should give up in order to get to that "someday?" You've stated that we're not going to get the Scope we want because of ALPA National politics, so why shouldn't we get every other QOL issue we can get our hands on to try and make things as good as they can be? Your idea of Scope here at ASA seems to be advocating giving in on the pay issue in order to "keep" some airplanes that we "might" lose to Skywest.

This contract isn't going to solve the problems with flight control. If we don't have effective scope, then any significant improvements in the rest of the contract will be shortlived as Skywest transfers flying. Your QOL will deteriorate when we start moving backwards.

So, I get what your problem is with ALPA National, but what is your solution here at ASA, here at home? Do you really, honestly believe that if we give the company what they want in terms of pay we'll suddenly be in a great position for "growth opportunities?" Do you really think that pilot pay is what's going to make or break ASA? Where is the "line" for you? Sometimes ASA doesn't seem that bad when you''ve got some seniority, but I'm not going to hang everyone behind me out to dry and I'd hope you wouldn't either. You're so worried about Herndon, you don't seem to care about what's happening right here except that maybe you won't get to fly the -900 someday.

Let me ask you, do you honestly believe if we get what we are asking for that we won't shrink? Whether we like it or not, we are in a bidding war. I don't like it, but apparantly ALPA is too inept to prevent it. My first choice would be to not have to bid against fellow "union brothers" for the flying. However if ALPA can't solve the problem, then I want to be competitive.

My bottom line? ASA sucks. It sucks bad. If ALPA National's agenda doesn't agree with ours, well let's work on that. But right now this place has got to change. This isn't about the RJDC. This isn't about what the Delta MEC could have done 7 years ago. This is about not being ashamed to tell your friends you work at ASA. This is about not having to explain the 8 hour rule to scheduling when they try to extend you after you've already flown 7.5 hours. This is about 1st year F/Os not having to live 6 to an apartment to afford it. Maybe you don't hear about these things on a regular basis, but as an ALPA member who actually works in my role to support my volunteer position, I hear about them everyday. This place is a disgrace and it's an insult to every pilot here who busts his/her butt daily to hold it together each day these negotiations drag on.

Please, tell us just what we're to do to make things right. I agree that current scope isn't cutting it. But, if National's not going to give it to us, do you really think caving to the company's will and believing everything they tell us will? This isn't meant as an attack, I really want to know what you think we should/could be doing.

(I apologize to the rest of you who may have gone cross-eyed reading this)

Well the difference between you and I is that I don't think ASA sucks. If I did, I would leave at this point, because I don't see it getting much better. There is a free-for-all bidding war going on because of ALPA's failures. This isn't about RJDC, it is about the union failing to keep control of the flying. If you don't control the flying, then you don't control the pay and working conditions. The free market is in control now.

First think I would do is stop the bleeding. Don't allow anymore flying to get away.

Then ALPA needs to come up with effective "brand scope" or "inclusive scope" and it has to include the mainline pilots. Stop further outsourcing.

Next, work on brand seniority lists and national seniority lists. Combine this with minimum contract standards.

Work on higher entrance standards. We have the lowest entrance standards of any profession.

That's a start, what do ya think?

 

[asapilot]

I don't have a "personal agenda". I simply don't think the current approach is working. I don't "refuse" to support the union, I think it is refusing to support us.

Well, I think your record of (not)serving the union in your office speaks for itself, so I don't feel the need to argue your support. As for your personal agenda, that's debatable at best, but not the point of this post so I'll leave it at that.

Absent a national or brand solution, we at ASA can either participate in the bidding process or not. I would chose to participate and live to fight another day. Some would rather burn the place down. I don't think that will solve the problem.

I don't think that showing we are willing to "chase the carrot" is going to solve any problems either. How does our willingness to do whatever management tells us going to convince ALPA National that we mean business? If we stand down on ASA issues, what would make ALPA National think we're going to stand up on National issues? And finally, when is "another day?" If we give in now, there won't be another day. We will have shown management that we will cave, we will bend to their will, and there won't be another chance to get what we deserve. This is that day, this is the line.

I think we should try and achieve a single list with the Skywest pilots at any cost.

That would be fantastic. How do we do it? Jerry's not just going to give it to us. On this point though, I would agree with you that we should be willing to entertain a way to get it done.

Let me ask you, do you honestly believe if we get what we are asking for that we won't shrink... I want to be competitive.

Yes, I do honestly believe that. I believe it so strongly that I'm willing to cast my vote to authorize a strike. I do agree with you that we are in a "bidding war", however I don't believe that we are not competitive. If we were not competitive, we wouldn't be in the position to have amassed the flying we do have. Jerry Atkin said it himself, no other regional airline has lower costs. Perhaps we will lose some things, I don't know. What I do know is that I'm not willing to be a slave to Jerry and Brian's whims. I've seen nothing to convince me that we need to concede anything to the company to retain our position in the market. Do we need everything the CNC has proposed, perhaps not, but I see no reason to give back anything at this point and I do not believe it will affect our competitiveness.

Well the difference between you and I is that I don't think ASA sucks.

That troubles me because it indicates that you're not very in touch with the QOL of the majority of our pilots. As I said in my previous posts, seniority can sometimes lead to ignorance. When I was flying the 70 out of DFW, we had 4 days that would leave DFW, go through the Skywest system for 3 days, and then return to DFW on the final day. It was easy to forget how poor our operation is and how poor our scheduling department is when you're so far removed from it. Take the pulse of your group out there in ATL and I think you'll find you're in the minority. Take a quick glance at the DOT reports and the daily scheduling logs and I think you'll find that ASA does indeed suck.

First think I would do is stop the bleeding. Don't allow anymore flying to get away.

I agree that this should be at the top of the list for our contract and I'm disappointed it's not, however, as you said previously, ALPA National doesn't appear interested in entertaining this now anyway.

Then ALPA needs to come up with effective "brand scope" or "inclusive scope" and it has to include the mainline pilots. Stop further outsourcing.

Next, work on brand seniority lists and national seniority lists. Combine this with minimum contract standards.

Some of that's all well and good, but as I said in my post, knowing that we do not have the support of ALPA National to accomplish these things right now, I'm more concerned about how we can improve ASA now, not the industry as a whole. Because while we're all trying to fix the industry down the road, we have to work at ASA everyday. We can fix our home and we can remain competitive. I'm sure of it and nothing Brain, Charlie, Scott, or Jerry says will change that. Many of us who do this job are intelligent enough to ignore the dog & pony show and have enough integrity to not compromise ourselves in the pursuit of what we deserve.