Learjet Question

[Spot]

I understand that the Learjet is a common type rating between the 20 series, 30 series and the 55.

So if someone has most of their experience in say a 20 series, but wants to transition to the 55, as long as they have a current 61.58 then there is nothing regulatory preventing that correct?

Now, if this pilot wanted to attend recurrent training in the 55 at CAE SimuFlite or Flight Safety, they could just go to recurrent without going through a 55 initial class correct (since it is a common type)?

Is the 20 (or 30) series that much different from the 55 where it would be difficult to do a short recurrent without having done an initial in the 55?

Thanks for the help, I obviously know little about learjets but am trying to learn.

Thanks.
Spot

 

[Deftone45075]

Initial is only required in one of the three series. After that, 4 hours of transition training is needed to qualify in a different series.

The airplanes are pretty similar from what I know of them. The systems are designed off one another.

The avionics in a 55c with glass will be quite different than in a 25.

 

[pa56pa]

I believe you are correct that you don't have to go through initial for the 55.. if I'm not mistaken, you do need the differences training which may be incorporated in your recurrency...

Best thing to do is to call Simuflite or FS.... they'll be able to tell ya..

 

[sydeseet]

Technically you are correct, a few hours of differences training is all that is required to transition from one model to another. However, the reality may be quite different. The differences between a 24 vs a 55c or a new 31A are intense. Our company is receiving a mid-serial number 31A in a few weeks which has caused a few headaches in the training department. Simuflite will not let you attend a recurrent only course for the 31A unless you have time in that model. Apparently this was attempted in the past by former 20 series drivers without any EFIS or FMS time who struggled in the simulator and failed checkrides. I believe they require a 6 day recurrent/transition course that was designed for such circumstances. I think the transition from a whiz-bang 31A to a "classic" 24B would be even worse - talk about an airplane that does absolutely NOTHING for you!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong! (You can always count on that around here.)

 

[Postflight]

clarification

I agree with what has been posted, but technically the "transition" training between LR-JET series is not required by FAR. I am SURE that in today's insurance environment, THEY would require formal training (and/or experience) in each series you planned to fly.

As far as the FAA is concerned, a current PPE in any Learjet covered by the LR-JET type makes you legal to fly PIC any all those aircraft. Just remember, what is legal is not always safe!

Even if the feds says it's legal and IF your insurance company will let you, it is incumbent on you, the pilot, to insure you are properly trained in each aircraft's systems and characteristics before accepting a flight assignment. Coming out of a 55b or c model and climbing in an early 20 series for the first time can be quite an experience! ;-)

Although each series has its quirks, I LOVE them all!

Regards,
Jay

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I second all that...

flying one and just hopping in the other can be quite a handful...
strictly learning and flying in a 55 then jumping into a 24/25 would be legal but not really too smart...

 

[Spot]

Thanks for all the responses, this confirmed what I was thinking, while it would be legal, it would not be wise given the differences in the models. (which is probably the reason for the insurance requirements)

I know this is a loaded question, but why do you think the FAA would allow them to be a common type with such big differences among the LR-Jet models? For example Why would the G2 and G3 require different type ratings and the LR-Jets not?


Is it more difficult to go from the 55 to the 24 than the 24 to the 55? If so, is it handling characteristics or instrumentation/avionics?

Thanks again for answering so many questions.

 

[Jack Schitt]

For example Why would the G2 and G3 require different type ratings and the LR-Jets not?

The G2 and G3 are a common type rating, G1159 I believe. The G4 and G5 are different type ratings.

 

[pa56pa]

I know this is a loaded question, but why do you think the FAA would allow them to be a common type with such big differences among the LR-Jet models?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has something to do with the engines.. Garrett TFE731s ..... I've never flown a 20 series, but I do know that the engines and thrust power is the same in the Lear 35 and the 55 (3700 # each).... except the 20s are of a straight jet and the 30s and the 55 are fan... obviously, with the difference in weight and dimensions, it makes sense to me that the 20s are basically rocket engines because of their relative small size and weight compared to the other two. The 55 is the largest, most comfortable out of the three, but the slowest.... (445 kts TAS). I favor the 55 because of the extra cabin space (similar to a LR60 which has larger engines, thus, a different type....) yep... I think that's one main reason.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I would say that none of the Lears is "easier" to fly. They are all rock-solid great performers that are pretty easy to fly....
but the 20's require MUCH MUCH more thinking in terms of fuel management...nobody can stress this enough!
My rule was NEVER come out of alitude (410,430,450,+? ) without being SURE you could land. Dont risk the miss. Of course I am assuming a 2.5-3hr flight here...in other words, pushing it to its max...which seemed like every charter trip I was assigned!

Never hesitate to request priority if needed, never feel bad about taxiing back to the FBO to get fuel after sitting in line (#25) for takeoff at KTEB with SWAP in effect. We all have done it. Dont take chances topping weather at FL450 as it gets a lil' scary bumpin around at that end of the C Corner. Look at those wings, they are small...always check your oxygen (always). Dont forget to turn the cabin air "ON" when you are empty and you plan on showboating with an unrestricted climb to FL240 - it will max out a 10,000ft IVSI, and the "rubber jungle" WILL deploy...and those things are a real biitch to get back in...if anyone asks if you have a lav onboard "NO" is the answer....the "honey bucket" is nasty...an easy 20$ bill at any FBO...

Once in 35's/55's life is a little easier, the fuel situation is alittle more lax, but of course the trips just get longer!...

Have fun in Learjets! they are the plane many loved to fly but never want to fly again!

 

[Timebuilder]

I've never flown a 20 series, but I do know that the engines and thrust power is the same in the Lear 35 and the 55 (3700 # each).... except the 20s are of a straight jet and the 30s and the 55 are fan... obviously, with the difference in weight and dimensions, it makes sense to me that the 20s are basically rocket engines because of their relative small size and weight compared to the other two.

The 55 has the same Garrett 731 engine as the 35, but has an STC for higher temps and more thrust, 200 lbs more per side than the 35.

The 20 series straight jet was what, a CJ 610? Something like that. An earsplitting screamer and a gobbler of fuel.

From what I hear from 20 series pilots (and I know plenty) it is a far easier transistion to go from the 20's into the 35 and 55 due to the superior handling and landing characteristics. I particularly like the 55 for more room and a docile, civilized feel.

And yes, the diferences training is what you would do coming from a 20 series into the more "modern" Lears.

 

[slickmagneto]

TYPE RATINGS

I have a friend who was one of the first corporate Learjet pilots, S/N LJ23-013. He says the FAA originally required separate type ratings on each model (23/24/25) until about 1975. With the advancement of FlightSafety and their sims the FAA decided that differences training was all that was needed. There was pressure from the business community to keep cost down. That decision affected other manufacturers.

Example:
HAWKER SERIES:
HS125 1A to 800. Nothing alike but appearance, same type.
HS125 1000 (own type due to glass cockpit, FMS and FADEC engines.)

SABRELINER SERIES:
40,60,65,75,80. Same type

LEARJET SERIES:
23,24,25,28,29,31,35,36,55. Same type.
LR60 (own type due to glass cockpit, FMS, and FADEC engines.)

 

[Timebuilder]

The Lear 45 is a different type, too.

 

[slickmagneto]

It was 2:30 am, what do you expect? PERFECTION!
Have a good one.

 

[AviateYou]

TFE 731 engines

The 55 has the same Garrett 731 engine as the 35, but has an STC for higher temps and more thrust, 200 lbs more per side than the 35.

I was bored tonight and thought I'd share some trivia with you timebuilder,

Yes, you're half right, the Learjet 35 and 55 both use the TFE 731 engine and the 55 has TFE 731 has a higher thrust rating.

In this case, the difference is that there is not an STC, the reason for the higher thrust rating is a stronger, and heavier fuel combustion chamber which would make sense. More fuel and more air equals more suck, bang, boom, blow.

The Learjet 35A utilizes a TFE (Turbo Fan Engine) 731-2-2B with 3500 lbs @ 72 degrees F and sea level.

The Learjet 55A utilizes a TFE 731-3A or TFE 731-3AR (automatic performance reserve)
with 3700 lbs @ the same ambient conditions. the automatic performance reserve boosts the thrust to 3880 lbs in the event of an engine failure during takeoff. The Lear 55A, 55b, and 55C actually use 6 different engines all with the same thrust rating but not all are equipped with AR.

The significance of the nomenclature is that 731 is the type, the second number is the thrust rating (-2 or -3), the higher the number the higher the thrust. There are actually several TFE 731 engines with thrust ratings up to 5000 lbs used on a variety of Jets.

Now the third number -2B or -3B indicate that the aircraft has no fuel heaters and that the aircraft is required like the 35 to use PRIST.

-2B1 or -3B1 have fuel Heaters on the left side of the engine.

For your ever expanding knowledge.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks, that is neat stuff!

I was told years ago that any design change after initial certification of a powerplant or aircraft constitues an STC, since, in this case, Garrett is unlikely to have started from scratch in the engine certification process. Would you agree?

I thought perhaps they would have used a different set of nozzles on the 55, but I had no idea of the existance of a heavier combustion chamber.

Can you explain the reason for different max speeds at certain altitudes for the various 35's? One guy said it was different windshields, and someone else said they had heard that this was not true.

Any ideas?

 

[Brett Hull]

Here's one for you Timebuilder& AviateYo

We just got our 35 s/n 483 back from getting RVSM'd & new windshields, and a few other things. Flap speeds before were: 198, 183 & 149. Now, they're 200, 200 & 150. Also, we used to get the 300 kt. overspeed below 14,000. Now, it's 300 below 8000. It's all been ammended in the AFM.

We're clueless as to why, though. Any takers?

 

[AviateYou]

Learjet various speeds

I have never heard that the TFE engine was STC'd since there are several derivatives. Which doesn't mean it isn't. I will ask a TFE 731 Tech Rep.

I am not an engineer so if you are inquiring about higher TAS, that has to do with cruise thrust available at altitude, The Learjet 35A achieves it's highest True Air Speed at about FL250 per the performance section of the checklist. That is most likely due to engine operating efficiency for the TFE 731 it probably gets it highest thrust in and around that altitude regime and wing design is more efficient.

A good example of this is that the Citation X and the Learjet 60, The Learjet 60 climbs faster but is restricted in cruise speed due to it's wing design handling characteristics. The Citation X has a wing design which is much more forgiving when flying close to the speed of sound which obviously allows it to cruise faster. The engines have to perform more to allow that and I am sure you've noticed the size of them.

I also know that the 307 KIAS redline is for bird strike on the windshield at low altitudes to 14,000 ft for the 35 and 300 KIAS for the 55 to 8000 ft. Why that is, I am guessing the windshield is probably stronger.

I hope all that helps.

 

[Timebuilder]

One of our 35's came back with the 307 up to 14,000 ammended down to 8,000 feet and below after the RVSM conversion.

Other 35's had received the updated soft flight wing and came back the same way. Only one 35 remains there with the speed restiction up to 14,000, and that one is up for the 12 year and the RVSM conversion in 2004.

I don't have a clue how speed becomes an issue, unless it is just easier to replace the airspeed indicator and the labels when you change the probes and the air data computers.

 

[AviateYou]

Lear Windsh & Flap Ext. speed increase

I know there are two mods for the Windshield replacement and the Flap skin. I will get back to you with the answers tomorrow.

Cheers!