Lear Upgrade Time

[jstyle13]

What can someone expect as far as upgrade times in a LR25 at a charter company that flies about 500-750 per year? Assuming that a year from now a seat opens up, would they be able to get somone with about 2000tt into the left seat? Is 700 hours in the plane enough to comfortably make the transition? Anyone have any idea what insurance would want there?

Thanks

 

[Redtailer]

Not trying to be really funny here.. ok, maybe I am but it is true.
The best thing you can do is ask the guy in left seat.

You will get a different answer for every company. Bottom line, meet the FAR mins for your ops and the rest is up to the company.

Some people, in the airlines of yesteryear, were hired straight in to the left seat of a RJ with 0 time in the aircraft with 2500TT.

As to how easy the transition will be, it depends on you. There is no magic number of time in type that will make or break you. What I do recommend is that you learn as much as possible from your current captain and conduct yourself each flight as though you are the PIC. Without stepping on anyone's toes of course.

I know it's not what you were hoping for, but the industry really is this fickle.

Later

 

[jstyle13]

Upgrade

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't really hoping for anything. Im just really happy to even have a job right now other than instructing. At my company they are talking like they want to upgrade me in around 10-12 months and I'm thinking I wont have enough experience or time to be able to do it. That's really all I was looking for as far as insight.

Thanks

 

[LJDRVR]

Congrats on having a job.

Don't even worry about what your perceptions are right now. Use the time given to you as an FO to learn as much about the airplane and job as possible. Pick the brain of every Captain you fly with. Never stop asking questions. have your partner critique everything you do and oush yourself to oerform to tighter standards. If plus or minus one hundred feet/10 KTS is a challenge, then get to where its not. Then shoot for 50/5, then 20 & 2. My point here is to NEVER be satified with your current performance level. Always be looking to improve.

Concerning autopilots: Leave it alone. Hand fly the jet every chance you get. Hand-fly to cruise, and if you're maintaining altitude within 20 feet, then go ahead and fire up george as your "reward". One word of caution, use it occasionally or you run the risk of going for a PC or recurrent and not having shot a coupled approach since the last time you climbed in the box.

During cruise every leg, pull out the QRH and discuss one of the anunciators. "What would we do right now if this light came on?" This "emergency du jour" will keep your recall items fresh, and provide you with checklist familiarity for failures that are common in the AC but that you may never see in the simulator.

Spend your reading time in your Ops Man and Ops Spec's, not to mention FAR's, AIM, etc. There are a buch of books that make good reading. Professional Pilot by John Lowry is one of the best. Spend some cruise time reviewing the arcane symbology in Jepp book 1. Ask the Captains you fly with if you may occasionally help with the paperwork. Think like a PIC: Do I need an alternate here? what would my fuel load be? The WX is 100 obscured an 2000 RVR, where am I gonna go if it deteriorates below mins? What are my options? What's plan B? Plan C? Observe and imitate the qualities you admire in the folks you fly with.

There really are no hard and fast rules for how much time you should have. I've flown with 2500 hour guys and gals that I would have happily put my wife and kids on board with as Captains. Conversely, I've flown with +8000 hour guys that absolutely suck all joy out of the cockpit and are a menace.

Work hard man! Knowledge, Skill and ATTITUDE.

 

[Hawker rider]

well I became a captain on a lear 24 with the 135-IFR minimums, so I had just a notch over 1200TT, I felt I knew the airplane, and felt ready for it, I flew with a few different captains and they all areed with me being ready for it. Ofcourse i got grilled by the insurance companies and at Simuflite they were amused too. Not too mention the people that think that you have to have an ATP to fly as PIC.

This all happened AFTER sept.11th too, so when you work hard and you get back up it's for sure possible, but I can't state it too many times, be SURE that you are ready to accept the responsibility, it was a company-deal for me that I would fly with another typerated co pilot at first, that lasted one flight, then we got another 300hr co-pilot who had never seen a jet from the inside.... That (looking back on it) was quite a bit too much on my plate all at once. I truly feel that the co-pilot needs to be able to at least fly and land the airplane when everything goes as planned..but that's a whole different discussion.

So if you get the opportunity look really close at yourself, and ask plenty of opinions, but if you're not 100% comfortable, stay a co-pilot for a bit longer

 

[TransMach]

LJDRVR

Hey LJDRVR,

Check you PMs.

TransMach

 

[Bumpman]

Personally, I would not want to turn anyone loose in a Learjet as a Captain without at least 500 hours in the right seat. It's been 20 years since I flew the Lear 24, and I hope I never see the inside of another Learjet. Smallest cockpit I have ever been in. You need to be a midget to fly that airplane. But, I guess if you are scrounging for jet time and have no choice in the matter, you do what you have to do.

Bumpman

 

[LJDRVR]

Hey Bumpman,

I'm 6'4", not scrounging for anything, and I do have a choice in the matter. You must be a blast to fly with. Why so down on the Lear?

Warm Regards,

 

[Bumpman]

If you are 6'4" and enjoy the Learjet, then more power to you. And as a matter of fact, I have been told that I am a blast to fly with. Now, back to the learjet. I had a really bad experience in a 24 about 20 years ago, aside from the fact that it was the most uncomfortable cockpit that I have ever sat in. It was my first jet job, and it was with an absolutely unsafe pilot. I didn't know any better because I was young and dumb and wanted to fly a jet. He came to me to ask me to fly with him. Long story there; won't get into that at this time. Anyway, I stayed 10 weeks and quit. Maybe if I had flown the lear with someone that was safer and wiser then I would have a different feeling about the airplane. Over the years after that, I did fly several trips in a 35, and I can't say that it was whole lot bigger inside than the 24. However, it was much better from a flying standpoint. Not near as squirrely. Over the last 32 years, I have flown quite an assortment of airplanes; from helo's in the USMC to B-727's in the airline industry, and I can certainly say that the learjet was the most uncomfortable airplane I have ever sat in. Now, this is just MY opinion, and as you well know, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. So, if my opinion doesn't match yours, that doesn't mean that we couldn't have a great time flying together, it's just an opinion. So, lets just agree to disagree and fly on down the airway. Have a great day, and keep it on the centerline.

Bumpman

 

[Bumpman]

LDJDRVR,

I would like to say that the advice that you gave that young pilot was dead on. The best thing that young F/O can do is inquire to his captain everything that the captain knows about the airplane being flown. However, not all captains deserve to be sitting in the left seat. Just an observation over 13 years of airline flying. There are some real doozies sitting over there that need to be mowing lawns or pouring drinks. From what I have read from your posts here, I'm sure that there is much that I could learn from you. I never want to stop learning in aviation. I try to learn something new every flight. I don't want to fly with the guy that knows it all, and believe me there are more of those out there than we would like to admit.

My Best,
Bumpman

 

[LJDRVR]

Sorry man,

I misread the context of your original post as flamebait. I see what you meant now. Mea Culpa.

I think most of us who've flown Lears have experienced varying degrees of the type of individual you were unfortunate enough to encounter. These "Lear Gods" practice airmanship and flight discipline on a sliding scale, responding to external circumstances such as time and money. (Rarely risk or procedural or regulatory guidance) These cretins regale their unfortunate partners with tales of their supreme abilities and outright falshoods concerning matters of technique. I once had one of the gentlemen tell me: "If you get to minimums and can see the ground vertically, you can continue the approach, you'll get the lights." (!!!) My personal favorite: "You guys need to quit being such pu__ies about fuel, the engines will still run when the gauge reads zero." (!!!!!!!)

I'm glad you survived you experience with your certificate and life intact. Many have not. The worst thing about being an FO in the twenty series cockpit was that emergency brake handle digging into your left thigh.

So, anyone else got any funny and/or sad lunatic Captain stories? (I hope none of the guys I fly with respond)

Blue Skies,

 

[Timebuilder]

I'll preface this with the following disclaimer: I have never flown the twenty series.

That said, I have received a bunch of anecdotal info from those who have.

This means that I have concluded that the twenty series is more difficult to manage than are the TFE 731'd, longer-winged cousins, so I imagine that it would take a little longer to become really proficient in a 20.

Your comfort level is important. You have a lot of good advice here in this thread. Out of your 700 hours in the plane, how much of that is stick time? 40? 150? There's a big difference. The auto pilot? I'd rather hand fly the aiplane too, which I have done in the 55 right up to 410. The problem is not only flying a coupled approach, as was mentioned, but also just remaining proficient in the use of the AP, period. Our Lears had three diferent verions of the AP, and my captains expected the AP to be used ASAP. This made the use problematic with a lack of stick time due to passenger enplanements at home base or captains who needed to fly for their own proficiency or peace of mind.

If you have FSDO approval, a good comfort level, know the aiplane and the memory items cold, and are insurable, then go for it, even if it's just the type and PIC check without the position of captain. At out place, "captain" meant about 700 to 1200 hours in type and a bunch of stick time.

Hope this helps your decision process.