Lear 24 landing distance

[mjmcint]

My employer is considering acquiring a Lear 24D. He has a ranch with a 4200' landing strip. Will this plane make it in heavy or light?

Thanks in advance.

MJ

 

[Learmeistr]

My employer is considering acquiring a Lear 24D. He has a ranch with a 4200' landing strip. Will this plane make it in heavy or light?

Thanks in advance.

MJ

It's been a long time since I flew a short body Lear, and you don't give complete information such as field elevation or temperature, however in the most general terms I will say yes .

When we flew the Lear 23 and 24 our company policy was that 4,000 feet was our minimum runway length. The airplane could operate shorter, but that left a safety margin for landing.

Your question also asks whether you could make it in to the field. I have no doubt that if flown correctly you can get the airplane into a 4,000 foot strip even at a heavy weight without much fuss. You will need to get on the reverse and brakes right away, no nonsense, and none of this 'grease it on the fixed distance markers' crap, you need to land it on the numbers, because I'll guess that your actual landing roll will take up 2,500' or more, and you don't need to be giving up 1,000 of that just because that's the way it works at the big airports.

The real question to ask is "how light do I have to be to get out of a 4,000 foot strip with a Lear 24?" To answer that we need temperature and altitude data, but like most things in the turbojet lears you can't carry much and still go very far. Likewise you can't carry much weight safely out of a 4,000' strip.

I'm really sorry I don't have my old checklist handy, but hopefully someone else here will have one and be able to give you a more accurate idea.

In short, yes, I believe it can be done safely, how convenient/practical it will be depends on ambient conditions and payload.

-John

 

[Rick1128]

Our company policy is 5000 feet, but the PIC may ellect to go into shorter runways dependent on conditions and preformance.

I have taken 23s, 25s and 35s into a 3000 foot runway. Had no problem at all. Normally stopped within 2000 feet. But landed in the first 200 feet, got right on the brakes and went to the anti-skid. None of these aircraft had TRs. If you look carefully at the landing performance, you will notice that the charts make NO distinction between TR aircraft and non-TR aircraft. That is because certification does not allow TRs to be considered in the mix. The biggest thing is to watch your weight. Pick someplace nearby to stop and get more fuel. Also very carefully bring it to your boss's attention that you will be performance limited coming out of that runway and that he needs to consider leaving early or real late in the day and to watch his weight (guests and baggage)

If you do not have some strong Lear experience, I would be very careful and set high limits for that runway.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

without charts in front of me, I would say YES 90% of the time.
Lear has great brakes, I would opt for the Dee Howard TR's if this is a normal stop (sounds like it)

24's are great planes, but man they are OLD. Never knowwhen brakes may go..etc...

I have landed a 25 on 3500ft before. Calm day, Ref -10 on approach, and used less than half the runway. No problem.

Keep in mind on short strips -- there is NO NEED to fly a Learjet at Ref +10-15 as most do. Thats fine on normal runways, but short strips I would not be ONE knot over Vref, maybe even a little less...just technique here...

Now, throw in a wet strip, some crosswinds, etc...I would stick to 5000ft and tell you boss to have a backup plan!. There is NO explaining rolling off the end of a runway...

 

[mjmcint]

Thanks Guys! We operate at many different weights and temps, so just a general idea is what we needed. Sounds like it might do the job in some circumstances. We have a Merlin IIIB for this particular trip most of the time, but might need to use the Lear24 on occassion.

I appreciate the info!
MJ

 

[Brett Hull]

Are you guys currently looking at a specific a/c or just thinking about it? I flew a 24DXR s/n 286 from a 4000' strip south of STL. It's been for sale for the last 2 years or so. Just wondering if that's the one you're looking at. PM me if you want the info on it.

Never had any problems going in or coming out. We were, however, always empty coming to or leaving home. It's a blast of an airplane. Have fun in it. I almost wish I was back in the noisemaker instead of the 35 I'm in now. What a frickin boring airplane.

Now, if FalconCapt or Gulfstream 200 want to hire me to fly the loads of fun Falcon, I'm already at simuflite. I can start class immediately!

 

[501261]

Depends on you!

A LR24 can easily handle a 4200’ strip. Sure you’ll be weight limited, but that’s always something to consider. I’ve taken a LR 24 into a 3000x23 ranch a few times and the airplane is fine. The bigger question is, are you comfortable doing it.

The bottom-line is if the book says you can do it, then the airplane can do it. A short review of jet airplane performance is in order. Read those little notes on the side, for landing distance, the runway required means crossing the runway threshold at a 50’ height, power at idle, using maximum braking, and spoilers to a complete stop. Well, guess what, if you can put it down on the numbers and pop out the buckets you’re only going to use half the runway!

The same is true on takeoffs. In jets the only runway numbers you will see is takeoff distance required, which will include the largest of either accelerate-stop, accelerate-go, or 115% of both engine takeoff distance. Well guess what, unless you abort or lose an engine, your probably only going to use half of the runway. Sure it’s disconcerting looking down a 3000’ runway in a Lear, but you’ve also probably never taken off with only 1800# fuel on board. The acceleration is, shall we say “brisk”, and you get to a V1/VR by the time your 2000’ down the runway.

So again, the bigger question is, are you comfortable with it? If you asked me right now would I take a LR24 into a 4200’ runway, I’d say not a chance in hell! When I was flying into that 3000’ ranch I was flying a LR24 over 110 hours a month, I’d say my spot landing skills were about as sharp as they can possibly be. I had also driven out to the ranch before I ever landed there and got things situated. The 3000x23 runway was in the middle of about a 7000’x 300’ prairie, so that if I ever overran, it would be a non issue! I also met with the ranch hand and briefed him on what I wanted him to do when we came in there and landed (1, clear the runway, 2,have a flare at the ready to wave me off in case an animal or something intruded on the runway, 3, don’t park the truck on at the end of the runway!, 4 just plan on picking up the boss at Big City airport 30 miles north if there was ever an precipitation, clouds, nightfall, winds, etc.).

So I became comfortable going into a maximum performance situation and my comfort level can change day by day and hour by hour. The boss knew that about 80% of the time he was going in and out of “Big City.” We never picked him up at his ranch (makes no sense picking him up if you’ve only got 15 minutes (+reserves) of gas. But every now and then if the weather was right and I was feeling good, we were able to save him a 45 minute drive home.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

hey man, I wish I did the hiring.

Id hire everyone. 50-75 pilots per airplane.

unlimited beer and BBQ allowance while on the road.

and $hit, Id also pick up all your golfing.


then again, maybe there is a reason I dont do hiring, huh?

 

[LearDriver]

Two Lights / Four Lights

One thing to keep in mind.....

If you do acquire that 24, and it has Dee Howard T/R's (which are the best)... always plan your "spot landing" as if the thrust reversers are not going to work (no deployment, only one deploys) Don't get used to landing on a 4200' strip and getting on the brakes lightly and expecting the T/R's to be a big help. If the little micro switches on the T/R's become displaced -just a lil- then you may find yourself working on getting the buckets out the whole way down the runway. This happens often enough on these old airplanes...... Great airplane... just getting older...

True that the book numbers don't include using T/R's at all.... but just thought that I would stress the point so that you don't adjust your landing technique just because you have them.

Have Fun.... Be Safe....

 

[Rick1128]

Also keep in mind that the Howard TRs (which are the only approved TRs on the LR20s) are presently operating under the a mandatory SB. So you will find about 99% of them pinned. Dee Howard no longer owns the STC and the STC owner is not doing anything with it. So plan on no relief from the situation. It is my understanding that the owner will not do anything until there is an approved RVSM STC for the 20s and operators express enough interest. In other words, BIG BUCKS!, BIG BUCKS!

Why the SB? Well, there have been a few incidents with the TRs. The TR accumulars keep blowing up. Or so they tell me.

No that it bothers me, I don't use them that much even when they work. They are getting old and parts are getting too hard to find.