Law passed on DEC 26th 2007 that protects pilots during a merger/acquisition

[BeachBummer]

Finally a correct statement. I agree with you 100%. SWA can do whatever it wants with Frontier after they buy it. All the legislation says is if they merge the operation they have requirments to meet.

Right, so like ATA they will buy rearrange and then disolve what is not useful. SWA doesn't want the planes or the people, at least I wouldn't think they would. They want the structure that holds that stuff up.

I have a hard time seeing this as anything but bad for the employees of Frontier.

Good Luck

 

[Cometman]

Right, so like ATA they will buy rearrange and then disolve what is not useful. SWA doesn't want the planes or the people, at least I wouldn't think they would. They want the structure that holds that stuff up.

I have a hard time seeing this as anything but bad for the employees of Frontier.

Good Luck

I disagree. Since this is much more than ATA I think they will offer a staple and to encourage the F9 pilots to agree they will throw in the pay freeze. Since it will take time for SWA to get rid of the AB and replace them with the 737 it only makes sense to keep them on. As long as they have their SWA number they can come over as each AB leaves and replaced with a 737. The Denver Base lock will help them in the transition. It will not hurt SWA since they cannot fly the AB. That will be more than any F9 would expect. Remember, they are being auctioned off. They could be out on the street.

 

[gt1900]

I would be willing to bet that SWA will buy F9. Operate them as two seperate company's, and slowly kill off F9. There won't be a merger, just SWA getting rid of its competition on its own terms, and taking the routes and gates as they see fit. F9 guys will get pref interviews at SWA when SWA starts hiring, but very few will get hired. Eventually SWA will just shut F9 down completely and sell off the assets they don't need.

 

[PCL_128]

SWA is buying F9 (assets) out of bankruptcy. They hold all the leverage.

Not really. Another offer is on the table (Republic), and they have already said that Frontier would be operated as a separate entity. Hence, no SLI screw-job for the F9 pilots. The IBT argues that an SLI would be required, but Bedford can easily purchase F9 on his own with his own money and that of other investors rather than using RAH funds to get around the IBT language, since he has no plans for operational integration anyway. The way I see it, the F9 pilots are much better off in that situation rather than putting themselves at the mercy of SWAPA and SWA management.

 

[BeachBummer]

I disagree. Since this is much more than ATA I think they will offer a staple and to encourage the F9 pilots to agree they will throw in the pay freeze. Since it will take time for SWA to get rid of the AB and replace them with the 737 it only makes sense to keep them on. As long as they have their SWA number they can come over as each AB leaves and replaced with a 737. The Denver Base lock will help them in the transition. It will not hurt SWA since they cannot fly the AB. That will be more than any F9 would expect. Remember, they are being auctioned off. They could be out on the street.

Hope you are right my friend...

 

[WabiSabi]

ATA did NOT give up the single integration list with WAH. In fact they did not even think of pursuing it until just prior to Ch. 7. SWA surrendered their interest in ATA in Dec. of 2005 to Matlin-Patterson. They bought the ATA cert. after the 2008 liquidation. Labor had no say in the matter.

On a related note. I spoke with one ex-ATA guy working overseas and he told me that an individual bought 3 L1011's for less than $2M in BK. They're doing Haj flights, now.

In April 2007, after MP bought WAH, I was one of the minority yelling that a SIL needed to be implemented immediately. ATA-ALPA, N. A. and World didn't think it necessary and didn't want it, respectively. I was of the mind that NA would get carved off first. Silly me. Should be more like SWAPA and not care about the profession, just myself.

Since you opened an old wound; I can't speak for ATA-ALPA or NA. However, I, along with many of my coworkers, were against seniority list integration and certainly care about our profession.....at least as much as you do.

 

[Beetle007]

I, along with many of my coworkers, were against seniority list integration and certainly care about our profession.....at least as much as you do.

Why were you against it?

I don't see how it could ever hurt the profession to combine labor groups across airlines?

 

[BornAgainPagan]

It was probably because an integration would have put North American and World pilots on the street and I can't say that I blame them. It wasn't long between the time that all 3 carriers were put under the umbrella of GAH and when ATA was shut down. At the time, ATA was the only carrier in the red while NA and WA were doing okay. An integration would have essentially been a way to spread the misery just because of the acquisitions. It's a shame and certainly not the fault of any of the 3 carriers' pilots. However, ATA was poorly managed for years prior to the shuffle and acquisition. To mix it up some more, ATA was ALPA and NA and WA are IBT which would have made an integration even more fun. What do I know? I didn't work at any of the 3, just my .02 based on the accounts of pilots I know from all 3.

 

[WabiSabi]

Why were you against it?

I don't see how it could ever hurt the profession to combine labor groups across airlines?

Born Again Pagan characterized it pretty well. We didn't want an announcement that said "hey, we're going to be one big happy family!" and relatively instantly, "by the way, you're losing your jobs due to the integration." Were we looking out for ourselves? Yes. However, combining labor groups just to redistribute who goes to the street isn't exactly what I'd call helping the profession either.

 

[Beetle007]

Were we looking out for ourselves? Yes. However, combining labor groups just to redistribute who goes to the street doesn't exactly help the profession either.

That seems to be the problem with everyone in this profession. Everyone looking out only for themselves. Combining labor groups means that those people who go to the street (if any) have a much better chance of eventually coming back to the same company (and maintaining their original longevity).

Combining labor groups means that you have a better profession...not just a good job.

 

[WabiSabi]

That seems to be the problem with everyone in this profession. Everyone looking out only for themselves. Combining labor groups means that those people who go to the street (if any) have a much better chance of eventually coming back to the same company (and maintaining their original longevity).

Combining labor groups means that you have a better profession...not just a good job.

I would agree with you had it not been for the small time frame between the forming of GAL and ATA's demise. In this case, there would be nothing for most to go back to. Look, GAL or no GAL, the writing was on the wall that ATA was in dire straights anyway. To combine the lists with this knowledge is nothing short of injustice. World and NA would have been just fine under WAH.

 

[WabiSabi]

Beetle007, with all due respect, I'm finished with this thread as nothing good can come of such a discussion at this point in time. To the ATA folks that are listening, I apologize for salting the wound. I was merely disagreeing with HalinTexas....which reopened it in the first place.

 

[tzflyer]

Not really. Another offer is on the table (Republic), and they have already said that Frontier would be operated as a separate entity. Hence, no SLI screw-job for the F9 pilots. The IBT argues that an SLI would be required, but Bedford can easily purchase F9 on his own with his own money and that of other investors rather than using RAH funds to get around the IBT language, since he has no plans for operational integration anyway. The way I see it, the F9 pilots are much better off in that situation rather than putting themselves at the mercy of SWAPA and SWA management.

If you will recall the ATA bankruptcy that SWA won the auction on, there was another previous off from AirTran that SWA outbid. After that, they found a way out of the deal without buying the whole thing.
Good luck to the F9 guys...

 

[Pickle]

If you will recall the ATA bankruptcy that SWA won the auction on, there was another previous off from AirTran that SWA outbid. After that, they found a way out of the deal without buying the whole thing.
Good luck to the F9 guys...

And let's not forget the AWA/ATA merger that someone in DAL didn't want to see happen. SWA will outbid/overpay for something in the short term if it gains them long term profitability. They will step on whoever they can to take care of themselves. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is. F9 guys are hosed. WN will spin it so they are the good guys. Again. (ATA/Morris/Transtar) And the people will buy it. Again.

 

[Cometman]

And let's not forget the AWA/ATA merger that someone in DAL didn't want to see happen. SWA will outbid/overpay for something in the short term if it gains them long term profitability. They will step on whoever they can to take care of themselves. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is. F9 guys are hosed. WN will spin it so they are the good guys. Again. (ATA/Morris/Transtar) And the people will buy it. Again.

It is strickly business. Get use to it. If it wasn't SWA it would be somebody else. The strong survive and weak go away. That is life. Some die young some die old. It isn't personal.