Last of the dinosaurs?

[tomgoodman]

Here's an interesting article which asserts that there has been a significant change, not just in our profession, but in the pilots themselves:

http://nymag.com/news/features/53788/index1.html

 

[labbats]

Great article... from February 2009.

 

[pilotyip]

But if you like to fly, it is still a great way to make a living.

As a side note, I find sometimes with the new generation of pilots the term known as "Common Sense" is not so common. Many of the newer pilots want to be able to quote a regulation, or a written procedure before they make a decision. The seat of the pants, "This is what I have to do to fix the situation" seems to be lacking.

Would this new breed run out of fuel before they told ATC. "Screw you, I am shooting the approach and landing". Sully used that seat of the pants feel to make decisions well outside of the box, the results speak for themselves.

I know the experiences I had as a 26 year old PPC, certainly forced me to often think outside of the box to get the mission done.

 

[Flyer1015]

becoming the first pilot ever to execute a controlled water landing in a modern commercial airliner without a single fatality

There was a Pan Am Boeing 377 Stratrocruiser that executed a controlled water ditching, and that was a modern commercial airliner (in that timeframe) without a single fatality.

 

[JT12345]

I was in a similar situation with no where to land at 24 years old and came to the same conclusion as Sully with a similar line of thinking. The only difference was the weights of the airplanes. I am trying to figure out what rules Sully broke that this article is based on. Some good info in the article, but i think the writer is worring about nothing. Btw no military here.

In a similar situation I think most of us would have made the same choice. I did at 24.

Dont put Sully on a pedestal, and sell average pilots short. Dont be critical of him either. Because when in an emergency it is not perfect like the sim training either.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Would this new breed run out of fuel before they told ATC. "Screw you, I am shooting the approach and landing".

I don't know if the new breed would, but the old breed sure did...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_173

 

[vetrider]

“I’m not suggesting that a young pilot or new pilot could not handle a situation,” says Jack Stephan. “But would you want your kid in that flight?”

Um Jack, you were in fact suggesting what you said you were not suggesting. How about you Jack, could you handle it?

 

[Lear70]

To sum it up:

There is no substitute for experience.

The modern era of automation and emphasis on turning the autopilot on as soon as possible in training is creating a whole generation of automation-dependent pilots.

The level of safety from modern aircraft design and building things to the "lowest common denominator" has brought the safest time period in aviation history, making the above two issues less and less important.

Until someone burns in a perfectly good airplane again (Colgan BUF crash).

Old article and poorly-written, but the truth is if I had to choose between a puppy mill "child of the magenta" or someone who came up flying Lears and DC9's or 727's up in YIP at the controls when the crap hits the fan, I'll choose option B every time.

No one wants to stay in YIP, but they turn out some of the best civilian aviators in existence, just because of the equipment and missions they're forced to fly. Hoping the new regs for the ATP requirement force the industry back to that model.

 

[Rough67]

To sum it up:



The modern era of automation and emphasis on turning the autopilot on as soon as possible in training is creating a whole generation of automation-dependent pilots.

Everyone should pick a few days out of the month where you do not use the autopilot/flight director below 10. If you honestly can't turn off the flight director and autopilot off at any time without pause.. Do it more.

Fly safe

 

[Lear70]

I do that almost every trip, just because I like to fly the plane.

What's really interesting is to have someone do this for the entire arrival. Climbout is pretty easy to do that. The arrival and manually computing descent points, crossing restrictions, etc without auto-throttles and the flight director is what would bite someone who has lost some hand-flying skills.

Flew with a guy last year that freaked when the A/T were deferred, wanted me to fly the whole day. Really? And you're the Captain? WTF? I'm sure most of our guys would be fine, but seriously?

We also have a procedure in and out of SNA that if the A/T are deferred, you have to call Dispatch to get a briefing. They know how to use our Autothrottles? And why does that necessitate a briefing? Pretty dang simple, set Takeoff N1 manually, at 600 feet lower the nose and reduce to cut-back N1, at 3,000 feet, manually set climb power, clean up, and motor on. What's the BFD?

Oh well, I just fly 'em.

 

[Quimby]

I do that almost every trip, just because I like to fly the plane.

What's really interesting is to have someone do this for the entire arrival. Climbout is pretty easy to do that. The arrival and manually computing descent points, crossing restrictions, etc without auto-throttles and the flight director is what would bite someone who has lost some hand-flying skills.

Flew with a guy last year that freaked when the A/T were deferred, wanted me to fly the whole day. Really? And you're the Captain? WTF? I'm sure most of our guys would be fine, but seriously?

We also have a procedure in and out of SNA that if the A/T are deferred, you have to call Dispatch to get a briefing. They know how to use our Autothrottles? And why does that necessitate a briefing? Pretty dang simple, set Takeoff N1 manually, at 600 feet lower the nose and reduce to cut-back N1, at 3,000 feet, manually set climb power, clean up, and motor on. What's the BFD?

Oh well, I just fly 'em.

If someone sitting in a cube decides it's a BFD, then it's a BFD!

 

[Lear70]

If someone sitting in a cube decides it's a BFD, then it's a BFD!

Of course.

What was I thinking...

 

[Ty Webb]

Pretty dang simple, set Takeoff N1 manually, at 600 feet lower the nose and reduce to cut-back N1, at 3,000 feet, manually set climb power, clean up, and motor on. What's the BFD?

Oh well, I just fly 'em.

I like the old school way better . . . . . Climb hard, leave your noise on the airport, then reduce power to maintain a 500'/min climb until 3000' AGL. Works great, lasts a long time.

 

[vetrider]

Lear you make good points, and I agree. You should have written the article, it would have been a whole lot better.

 

[Flyer1015]

To sum it up:

There is no substitute for experience.

The modern era of automation and emphasis on turning the autopilot on as soon as possible in training is creating a whole generation of automation-dependent pilots.

The level of safety from modern aircraft design and building things to the "lowest common denominator" has brought the safest time period in aviation history, making the above two issues less and less important.

Until someone burns in a perfectly good airplane again (Colgan BUF crash).

Old article and poorly-written, but the truth is if I had to choose between a puppy mill "child of the magenta" or someone who came up flying Lears and DC9's or 727's up in YIP at the controls when the crap hits the fan, I'll choose option B every time.

No one wants to stay in YIP, but they turn out some of the best civilian aviators in existence, just because of the equipment and missions they're forced to fly. Hoping the new regs for the ATP requirement force the industry back to that model.

If YIP was a base for my airline, I'd be the first to bid there!

 

[Lear70]

If YIP was a base for my airline, I'd be the first to bid there!

I was referring more to the quality of life (pay, schedules) of the ad-hoc freight operators up there than anything else, but I think you knew that.

 

[pilotyip]

If YIP was a base for my airline, I'd be the first to bid there!

QOL is in the eye of the beholder. I don't there are any pilots flying 121 who spend more time at home than YIP based guys who lives local. Maybe 4 nights a month in a hotel away from home on an average for the on-demand cargo pilots. The pax guys spend a lot more time on the road, but they like knowing what they are going to a day in advance as opposed to 30 minutes in advance.

 

[Lear70]

QOL is in the eye of the beholder. I don't there are any pilots flying 121 who spend more time at home than YIP based guys who lives local. Maybe 4 nights a month in a hotel away from home on an average for the on-demand cargo pilots. The pax guys spend a lot more time on the road, but they like knowing what they are going to a day in advance as opposed to 30 minutes in advance.

Total days off per month might be a little important as well, not to mention pay.

20 days off a month plus weekends and holidays, 3 wks pd vacation, and 6 figures as an F/O doesn't happen at a YIP freight carrier.

 

[Flyer1015]

QOL is in the eye of the beholder. I don't there are any pilots flying 121 who spend more time at home than YIP based guys who lives local. Maybe 4 nights a month in a hotel away from home on an average for the on-demand cargo pilots. The pax guys spend a lot more time on the road, but they like knowing what they are going to a day in advance as opposed to 30 minutes in advance.

Had I not been hired at my present company, I would have definitely sent a resume your way.

 

[SWA Bubba]

...

We also have a procedure in and out of SNA that if the A/T are deferred, you have to call Dispatch to get a briefing. They know how to use our Autothrottles? And why does that necessitate a briefing? Pretty dang simple, set Takeoff N1 manually, at 600 feet lower the nose and reduce to cut-back N1, at 3,000 feet, manually set climb power, clean up, and motor on. What's the BFD?

Oh well, I just fly 'em.

That's interesting. On this side of the fence, it's only been recently that they've altered the SNA procedures to even allow using A/Ts for the noise abatement takeoff. We used to be required to do it A/T off, and a lot of folks (me included) still do it that way.

I guess it's one of the mysteries of aviation: "you guys aren't good enough to do it this way, but you guys over here aren't good enough to do it any way EXCEPT this way..."

Bubba

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Modern airplanes you don't really fly them much, even for those of us that are so called "hand flyers" it all amounts to an average of 10 minutes of actual hand flying in a typical flight. Where I see the difference is in the foundation experience, today the typical pilot considers partial glass "old school" I think that those formation first few years of a pilots career are best spent in mostly a raw data environment, flying steam, once that foundation is there it never goes away regardless of what you consequently fly. The whole pay for training revolution that has brought many pilots from 250 to 500 hours to the right seat of an RJ, creates a weak foundation that will never allow comfort when basic hand flying is needed because the comfort with basic hand flying skills are not mature enough with somebody that has barely 500 hours.

 

[AA717driver]

I hand flew the 717/MD80 and 757 a lot before I got laid off. I flew the G550 by hand more than others in my department.

I don't hand fly the 757 much now because I just don't care to. When/if I get back on the 80 again, I'll start hand flying more. I agree there is a lot of trepidation among people when it comes to turning off the A/P, etc.

Lear70, I whole heartedly agree with your comments re: YIP v. Pilot Mills. You've got way too many "kids" coming out of school and into an RJ. You just deprived them of a necessary segment of their development as pilots.

Pity.

TC

 

[Lear70]

Modern airplanes you don't really fly them much, even for those of us that are so called "hand flyers" it all amounts to an average of 10 minutes of actual hand flying in a typical flight. Where I see the difference is in the foundation experience, today the typical pilot considers partial glass "old school" I think that those formation first few years of a pilots career are best spent in mostly a raw data environment, flying steam, once that foundation is there it never goes away regardless of what you consequently fly. The whole pay for training revolution that has brought many pilots from 250 to 500 hours to the right seat of an RJ, creates a weak foundation that will never allow comfort when basic hand flying is needed because the comfort with basic hand flying skills are not mature enough with somebody that has barely 500 hours.

Perfectly stated.

 

[humveedriver]

So who has it worse? Civilian pilots who skip the night freight in a dilapidated Baron with no autopilot path or Air Force Academy graduates who fly a UAV?

 

[Lear70]

So who has it worse? Civilian pilots who skip the night freight in a dilapidated Baron with no autopilot path or Air Force Academy graduates who fly a UAV?

UAV flight time doesn't exactly translate into an airline flying job, so you're not really comparing apples to oranges. In fact, I would say that it basically is simulator time in a real-time environment.

As such, it's impossible to say which would be "worse" as it applies to stick skills and handling degraded-flight-control issues in an emergency situation, which is what the "Children of the Magenta" suck so badly at. Since you'll never see a UAV pilot behind the controls of an airliner without going back through flight school and flying real planes (at least with the regs the way they are now), trying to make that comparison is pretty much a moot point.

 

[humveedriver]

What I am saying is, things change. Before we start chastising our future airline pilots for not having the "right stuff", consider what opportunities they have early on on their careers. I flew the 1900D, no autopilot through three northeast winters. But there are way less 19 seat operators out there now (J32, Merlin and the mighty beech). Air Force standing up more UAV squadrons and less fighters. So between Uncle Sam scaling back and the fact that there are more RJs out there now vice 15 years ago, that's the reality. It's only going to get more automated in our industry, not less.

 

[Lear70]

Which isn't a problem... Until it's a problem.

This kind of thing is one of the contributors to the AF accident. Two pilots who didn't realize the pitch-power-stall relationship of a fixed-wing jet. An old stick and rudder guy would likely have picked up on it early on in the sequence.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm a big proponent of the new flight time requirements for Part 121 operators. I've been saying an ATP for an Airline Pilot, not just the Captain for over a decade. If that holds, pilots will still have to get that time somewhere, and if pay doesn't come up, people aren't going to shell out $100 an hr for 1500 hrs to get an $18k a year job.

That means they will have to get some time like you and I did. That's a good thing, and hopefully will stay that way. At least until they make a crash-proof plane.

 

[Sluggo_63]

This kind of thing is one of the contributors to the AF accident. Two pilots who didn't realize the pitch-power-stall relationship of a fixed-wing jet. An old stick and rudder guy would likely have picked up on it early on in the sequence.

Yeah, that old stick-and-rudder guy, Bud Holland, sure had that pitch-power-bank-stall stuff all figured out...

 

[whymeworry?]

Great article.

Ironically, I can only assume Skiles, and maybe even Sully, contribute to the reason they're so poorly paid, kicking ALPA out. If they supported or support USAPA then they have nobody to blame but themselves for the continued degradation of pay at their carrier. The company wants a contract, but not without risking lawsuits from that would result from the arbitrated and binding seniority list award being thrown out.

The profession is still good. I'll make $130K as a NB FO this year. Not as much as a SWA FO, but certainly way more than my sister, who is a nurse, will make (referencing the articles comparison to nursing).

USAir FOs could do even better, $180-$200K (as FO, not Capt), if they would stop being so Taliban-esque about their beliefs and views of the Nic award and move on already.

Meanwhile, management laughs all the way to the bank. WAFJ.

 

[Sandhawk]

great article.

Ironically, i can only assume skiles, and maybe even sully, contribute to the reason they're so poorly paid, kicking alpa out. If they supported or support usapa then they have nobody to blame but themselves for the continued degradation of pay at their carrier. The company wants a contract, but not without risking lawsuits from that would result from the arbitrated and binding seniority list award being thrown out.

The profession is still good. I'll make $130k as a nb fo this year. Not as much as a swa fo, but certainly way more than my sister, who is a nurse, will make (referencing the articles comparison to nursing).

Usair fos could do even better, $180-$200k (as fo, not capt), if they would stop being so taliban-esque about their beliefs and views of the nic award and move on already.

Meanwhile, management laughs all the way to the bank. Wafj.

this ^^^^