Landing Without rwy lights???

[Lead Sled]

What about in the case of LIFEGUARD missions?

I can only go with my personal experience. I flew air ambulance throughout the intermountain west for three years, mostly at night. Yes, there were plenty of "dark hole" approaches and no, we never operated without aircraft landing lights and without runway lighting - to have done so would have been suicidal.

Lead Sled

 

[heavy_d]

I think we'll be hearing about him on the news very soon.

 

[Flibmeister]

My original reply was referencing that situation.

How can that be? You know nothing about the qualifications of the pilot in question, beyond the fact that he's a partner of the pilot asking.

Your original reply was:

"Sorry, but if you are stupid enough to ATTEMPT to land or takeoff at an airport without functioning lighting unless it is a bona-fide emergency, the feds need to come to your house to take your license."

That seems to be painting with a pretty broad brush, to me.

I've intentionally never addressed a specific situation, because they're all different. My point remains that, contrary to your contentions, operations on unlit runways ARE legal (under Part 91), CAN be conducted safely (by appropriately qualified pilots exercising good judgment) and often are.

Your original post says that anyone who even attempts such a thing is stupid and should lose their license. I think you're wrong, both in law and in fact. You've said nothing since your original post that even remotely convinces me otherwise, so I'll bow out here and allow you the final word.

 

[501261]

What about in the case of LIFEGUARD missions?

Almost all "Lifeguard" flights are operated under 135. Landing without runway lights is illegal under 135.229.

You were talking "Lifeguard", not emergency, big difference! Coming from a former air ambulance pilot, you need to realize the "mission" is to fly the airplane safely! I flew air ambulance for over 3 years and there was exactly 1 case that I can remember that the patient would have been better off in the airplane* than in an ambulance or regional "facility" awaiting transport. Think about that next time you're "bending" the FAR's to complete a "Lifeguard mission".

*We're talking airplanes not helicopters, and granted we’re talking run of the mill air ambulance not BFE, Alaska air ambulance.

 

[bugchaser]

While it's not for everybody, it can and is done safely all the time. We do lots of landing and takeoffs at "dark" strips. We also work around over and under powerlines etc in the dark. While it certainly requires care, I don't see it as being overly dangerous if the aircraft has decent landing lights. Before everyone starts flaming me, let me say that I would never suggest this to any of my students or anyone without the proper experience. Just saying that with the right equipment and experience level, it can be done safely.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Bug,
Ag pilots rock! Awsome flying at least! The most dangerous around. Ag pilots have skills far above most!

Sigh.. I suppose everyone has their own level of comfort and common sense.

Well there 'flib' ole buddy, I guess I must have missed that part of instruction to be "appropriately qualified" to land and takeoff at night with no lighting at all for the runway. (As you state) I also must have missed the part of the original post where he was talking about being legal.

[QUOTE"at night with no runway lights? No vasi, no beacon, just a gps approach and the dark abyss that is a 6000 foot runway. Would you land there? My partner thinks it is safe and doesn't mind doing it. I think it falls under careless and reckless. Any thoughts???[/QUOTE]Hmm nope, don't see anything about legalities there! I am glad there are many posters here who seem to think it is AT LEAST careless and reckless AGAIN, as in the that original post from bryrex. I guess my original reply should have been something like, "If the person in question is 'HIGHLY AND APPROPRIATELY TRAINED'(YOUR words, uh, can I find someone who can train me?) and are 'EXERCISING GOOD JUDGEMENT'".

Those would be my thoughts, as asked by bryrex.
atrdrivr was right on also in his post. "Ask yourself what I would tell the judge"
For flib and the rest of those who think it is a 'safe operation' just three words,
'you go girl', I'll read about it on the NTSB webpage.

 

[A Squared]

What about in the case of LIFEGUARD missions?

The NTSB decision I linked *was* a lifeguard flight. THe pilot got violated for landing without runway lights.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Kinda off topic...

I'm sure a no light (runway or aircraft) landing would be easy on those clear, full moon nights where you can see really well. I know I enjoy flying the ol' single engine aircraft on those nights simply because I know I can land in a field should the need arise. On most dark nights though, I feel pretty vulnerable but I guess that has become an accepted risk in aviation.

 

[heavy_d]

Hey if you guys are going to excercise your privileges in that kind of unsafe manner then go right ahead. I ask you though never fly with me or near me and do it on your own private airstrip. "For flib and the rest of those who think it is a 'safe operation' just three words,'you go girl', I'll read about it on the NTSB webpage." ALONG WITH THE DEAD FAMILY WHO'S HOUSE YOU RAN INTO!
Go ahead and risk your life if you think you are "qualified" but don't risk others.

 

[AVI8V1]

bryrex,
you are PIC for a 135 operation and the other PIC believes he is safe to land without lights at home base on the 91 leg. You may do Air Ambulance and on-demand charter but do not land in this black hole scenario with passengers on board. Just you and your other pilot driving you down the slide on shotty GPS vertical navigation that is not approved for primary navigation. No papi, no ILS, just the MX20 and a Crewmember who says, "You do not have to land at night with no rwy lights, I'll do it and you can come along for the ride". If you decide not to do it when you are flying you have to land at another airport, pay a landing fee, rent a car, drive home, get up the next day drive to the plane and bring it home.

 

[flyn96]

ATR, our 121 manuals says for TAKEOFF, if you can see runway markings centerline and edge etc you are legal to go. Which with all the landing and taxi lights you can. Dispatcher agreed, we left.

Landing with no runway lights dumb, take off I have no problem.

 

[atldc9]

Just a note, FAR 135.229(b) only requires PASSENGER carrying airplane to have runway lights. Freighters do it in the dark!!!. Seriously though, there is no requirement for the "area to be used for landing to be clearly shown (i)for airplanes by runway marker lights" unless you are carrying passengers.

 

[irapilot]

As a former "lifeguard" pilot



As a former "lifeguard" pilot I can just point out one thing, I am not going to kill 3 to "save" 1". If its dark and I can't see the terrain, runway environment and there are no lights - I am not landing, I don't care if it's 91, 135 or 121 or whatever, unless it is a true emergency.

I can remember a time when I had to fly into a strip near a clinic at night, an old guy would come out and start a generator at night and it would run the lights. Once they couldn't get it started and I wouldn't land (King Air on a 20' wide strip, 2700' long). The clinic got mad, called our competitor and they put their 421 into the ditch landing - pretty pointless. It was frigging black as hell. Yes, I flew in the mountains, in the bush, off dirt and mud and in awful weather, but I wanted as many outs and resources as possible. When you are as much of a hack pilot as I am you need everything in your favor.


As someone else pointed out, the insurance company is the last word in many cases, wreck an expensive piece of machinery doing something stupid and guess what - they won't pay.

A friend used to say - when considering something outside of a "normal operation", picture yourself in front of a jury, judge and the family of your pax that were killed or injured if something went wrong, even if it is not the fault of the stupid act, and you should be sure that you can, truthfully, say that "I, as a professional, did everything I could to make that fateful flight as safe as I could, using the industries best practices and procedures and in compliance with all regulations (and the intent thereof). And I am truly sorry, I did everything I could."


Fly well.

 

[ThomasR]

One last note to those of you who are drawn to the dark side, it is almost certain that you will get vertigo and it will be at the most inopportune moment; you will be low very close to stall or if in a helicopter you will be at a hover. We [military]never attemped dark landings single pilot. The shadows moving at different speeds and different directions as you make that close final appoach will through you off. The other pilot will not have vertigo and when the sensation gets to be too much you will be glad the other guy is there. Your only alternative is to make a missed appoach and try to get enough nerve up to make another go at it. Turn your rotating becon off and nav. lights to steady bright. Like I said before once you hit the landing lights your night vision is gone. If you think it was dark before the approach............If you have never had vertigo in a real situation be very glad.

 

[regionalcap]

FAR 121.590

"The limits of the area to be used for landing or takeoff are clearly shown by boundary or runway marker lights."