landing flap settings at a class "G" airport

[sleddriver71]

FAR 91.126 "Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in class 'G' airspace.

(c) Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necesary in the interest of safety.

What is the basis of this requirement? Is it a noise issue? Does it have to do with the aircraft requiring a lower power setting because of having less drag with minimum flaps thereby creating less noise? I thought maybe it had to do with determining runway requirements based on the minimum flap settings but, re-reading the FAR, it doesn't mention that this is for planning purposes but to actually use the minimum flap setting.

 

[MauleSkinner]

My understanding is that it's a noise issue...less flap, less drag, less thrust, less noise. The same applies to the "at or above glideslope to 200 feet" requirement at a tower-controlled airport with an ILS to the runway of landing.

Most of the jets I've flown only have full-flap landing distance charts, though...rules of thumb can be applied for other settings but I've always assumed that the "minimum certificated" meant the manufacturer has provided charts.

Fly safe!

David

 

[sleddriver71]

Thanks David, I just don't remember seeing that in the FAR's before. That sounds like the most logical answer though...

 

[MauleSkinner]

Thanks David, I just don't remember seeing that in the FAR's before. That sounds like the most logical answer though...

You read it on an internet message board, so it MUST be true!

 

[Seadogrun]

However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necesary in the interest of safety.

Here's your catch all. Isn't it almost always in the interest of safety to use full flaps? I think so.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I think you guys are misinterpreting this. When they say "minimum," they don't mean use the least amount of flaps as opposed to using too much flap. More flap is always better (let's not get into the X-wind discussion). It results in a slower approach and a shorter rollout.

Rather, I think the intention is to use at least the minimum prescribed in the AFM for landing. This reduces your stall speed, landing roll, etc. etc.

By not using the minimum flaps as per the FAR cited, you would be operating in a more perilous way, so to speak.

 

[nosehair]

This is priceless. This is a very good example of how an FAR can be interpreted in two completely different ways...and nobody is tweaking a word!

It is completely impossible to understand which way the reg is meant to be without reading the preamble to understand what the meaning of "minimum" is.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Maybe Avbug could clarify this. I'd be willing to buy his interpretation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is priceless. This is a very good example of how an FAR can be interpreted in two completely different ways...and nobody is tweaking a word!

It is completely impossible to understand which way the reg is meant to be without reading the preamble to understand what the meaning of "minimum" is.

...although if Amish is right, this is a particularly badly worded reg. Otherwise I just can't see how the words could be read that way, with or without the context.

"must use the minimum" just does not mean "must use at least the minimum"

But either way, I can't imagine the reason behind it.

 

[SSDD]

...although if Amish is right, this is a particularly badly worded reg. Otherwise I just can't see how the words could be read that way, with or without the context.

"must use the minimum" just does not mean "must use at least the minimum"

But either way, I can't imagine the reason behind it.

Less flaps=less power required=less noise.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Less flaps=less power required=less noise.

My bad. I understood that part. What I was confused about was why a Class G airport in the middle of nowhere with nothing along the approach path was more deserving of protection than a Class D in a busy residential area.

I completely forgot that 91.126 is incorporated into the higher categories.

So, in effect, the "minimum flap setting" rule applies to landings at all public use airports?

 

[Spooky 2]

Alternate landing flaps

Virtually all Boeing aircraft have two landing flap settings. i.e., the B 737, 727 757,767,777, 747 all have an alternate flap 25 landing flap along with the "normal" flap 30 setting. In addition there is full data under their respective QRH Performance tabs. Both the DC10 and MD11 have similar alternative settings which will reduce the noise footprint.

Many European airports ask for these alternate configurations along with minimum use of reversae thrust. All of this is done with the caveate that safety of flight takes presedence over these noise abatement procedures.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Minimum Flap Settings

From a former FAA inspector (me). When I teach a course on how to handle a FAA ramp check, that is exactly the reg that I use to trip someone up.

I first say that you are landing your "N" registered (civil) turbojet (not prop) aircraft today on a 10,000' runway at sea level with a dry runway and no obstructions.

Then I ask the following:
1. Are you the PIC?
2. Was this a checkride,training or certification ride?
3. Did you have any problems/emergencies?
4. What flap setting did you use for landing?

The answers are usually, yes, no, no and full.

Then I thank them and tell them they will receive a letter after ten days. (I don't want them to file a NASA report)

I just got all the info I needed to violate them for a violation of FAR 91.126(c). Now isn't that a bunch of hooey? I don't think anyone has ever been violated for that reg but it is a good example for my ramp check briefing.

The reg came about in the '70s to try to have a reduction in noise levels for all those Stage 1 aircraft out there. It was not well thought out then and I have responded to the latest request by the FAA for our ideas on what regs need to be changed or eliminated with this one.

 

[Spooky 2]

From a former FAA inspector (me). When I teach a course on how to handle a FAA ramp check, that is exactly the reg that I use to trip someone up.

I first say that you are landing your "N" registered (civil) turbojet (not prop) aircraft today on a 10,000' runway at sea level with a dry runway and no obstructions.

Then I ask the following:
1. Are you the PIC?
2. Was this a checkride,training or certification ride?
3. Did you have any problems/emergencies?
4. What flap setting did you use for landing?

The answers are usually, yes, no, no and full.

Then I thank them and tell them they will receive a letter after ten days. (I don't want them to file a NASA report)

I just got all the info I needed to violate them for a violation of FAR 91.126(c). Now isn't that a bunch of hooey? I don't think anyone has ever been violated for that reg but it is a good example for my ramp check briefing.

The reg came about in the '70s to try to have a reduction in noise levels for all those Stage 1 aircraft out there. It was not well thought out then and I have responded to the latest request by the FAA for our ideas on what regs need to be changed or eliminated with this one.

Well I'm not sure if your were referencing my previous post regarding final flap settings but I see nothing in FAR 91.126(C) that would change not only my opinion but generally accepted and taught procedures. All of the information for the Boeing product line, lives within their respective QRH. Cab you expand on your comments a little bit, please.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Response to Spooky

As I mentioned, I believe the regulation was ill-conceived to begin with and I am quite certain that no one has ever received a violation for this reg.

You are correct about the alternate flap setting for many airplanes. The A-300/310 has the same type of thing that the Boeings have but we didn't use full flaps very often.

The only way, other than FOQA, that the FAA could be sure that you landed with full flaps is if you told them. No way that they could prove, just by observing visually, that you landed with full flaps. It would just be too hard for them to prove and what would the point be anyway?

Like I mentioned, I just use it for my ramp check example and if the FAA listens to my request then this reg will go away.

 

[GravityHater]

Isn't that the Knee-Jerk "Let's do Something" Thurman Munsen FAR?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Then I ask the following:
1. Are you the PIC?
2. Was this a checkride,training or certification ride?
3. Did you have any problems/emergencies?
4. What flap setting did you use for landing?

The answers are usually, yes, no, no and full.

Then I thank them and tell them they will receive a letter after ten days. (I don't want them to file a NASA report)

I just got all the info I needed to violate them for a violation of FAR 91.126(c). Now isn't that a bunch of hooey? I don't think anyone has ever been violated for that reg but it is a good example for my ramp check briefing.

Is this also the case for a turbojet that DOESN'T have published data for other-than-full flaps, in your opinion?

The reg does specify "minimum certificated".

Fly safe!

David

 

[gulfstream2345]

Class G

If the turbojet does not have published landing distances in the AFM other than full flaps then there is no other flap setting to use other than in an emergency. That would be outside this regulation.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If the turbojet does not have published landing distances in the AFM other than full flaps then there is no other flap setting to use other than in an emergency. That would be outside this regulation.

So you don't actually have enough information to issue a violation with your ramp check scenario?

Fly safe!

David

 

[dispatchguy]

As a dispatcher, I read it this way:

B727 type, available landing flaps 30 and 40

Use Flaps 30 for all normal landings, and 40 if you really really need to to limit the landing roll, or you are going to a short short runway.