Landing a Westwind smoothly

[Makesheepnervus]

Speaking of Lift Dumps, I can remember flying right seat with a couple of guys who inadvertently left the speed brakes out all the way to touch down and in both cases the landings were remarkably smooth. Maybe this is the secret?

 

[bocefus]

ding ding ding, We have a winner!

 

[HMR]

For you WW guys that trained at the Wilmington FSI- Did you ever have the sim instructor (I won't say name) who swears they used to pop the TR's at 50' in order to land on <3,000' strips. He had us do it in the Astra sim and it worked great. No way I would try it in real life.

 

[Makesheepnervus]

Never tried the TR trick, I have heard of it being done in the GII in real life as a short field technique. (There is a "Takeoff/Restow switch that by-passes the squat switches that makes it possible to deploy the TR's in flight)

Speaking of FSI Wilmington, how many out there had "Dick Washer" for an Astra or Westwind instructor?
(That is his real name by the way, and he is a great guy none the less)

 

[HMR]

DW is great. I'll be seeing him in a few weeks.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

For you WW guys that trained at the Wilmington FSI- Did you ever have the sim instructor (I won't say name) who swears they used to pop the TR's at 50' in order to land on <3,000' strips. He had us do it in the Astra sim and it worked great. No way I would try it in real life.

thats a great technique to show folks in the sim.....
..
For anyone who tries it in real life....hope they come out symetrical!! - this is a great way to kill yourself and I would fire any instructor on the spot that "showed" this to anyone in the sim.

the only results I ever saw was the WW that did this in Wilmington. struts right through the wing!!

Ive had Dick Washer in class, great guy!..but two words man -- NAME CHANGE!
anyone had Craig Wheel? fun guy to have for class also.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

thats a great technique to show folks in the sim.....
..
For anyone who tries it in real life....hope they come out symetrical!! - this is a great way to kill yourself and I would fire any instructor on the spot that "showed" this to anyone in the sim.

the only results I ever saw was the WW that did this in Wilmington. struts right through the wing!!

Ive had Dick Washer in class, great guy!..but two words man -- NAME CHANGE!
anyone had Craig Wheel? fun guy to have for class also.

DickWasher?? Is that really a real name??

Ace

 

[Makesheepnervus]

Yep, that is his real name, and he does refer to himself as "Dick", not "Richard".

G200; I remember Craig Wheel, one of the few instructors that managed to keep me awake all day!

 

[HMR]

thats a great technique to show folks in the sim.....
..
For anyone who tries it in real life....hope they come out symetrical!! - this is a great way to kill yourself and I would fire any instructor on the spot that "showed" this to anyone in the sim.

Yep, I agree it would be a great way to get in line for a Darwin Award.

As for firing the instructor... We like that guy! He does a good job (OK, I would never go into a short field w/him after seeing that stunt, but...). As usual, we had an hour or so left over at the end of our last sim session so he asked if we wanted to see something "fun". I know, "famous last words" but this is the sim not the A/C.

G200-You've never tried an aerobatic routine or inverted ILS on the last day of sim in the Global?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

not that Im against having fun...but..

Imagine the scenario..your typical Westwind client - (say "Julio" from Toluca )comes to FSI. Its his first FSI initial and he really thinks these instructors know everything about the aircraft, that they are really exprerienced..

He sees this airborne TR "technique" and regards it as a slick move (as opposed to the dumb a$$ manuever it really is). He takes it home and tries it at the next 3500' strip he has to take his boss and family into. Needless to say the resulting crash and fire kills 5 of the 7 of them - Julio survives and explains that he was showed this at FSI - the training provider approved by his insurer...Oh the lawyers are salivating!

Imagine how much this might cost Buffett? millions and millions....

I know...its just fun and you arent Julio...but one look around at the average FSI Thursday luncheon says to me that there is a lot of Julios out there...and I would venture that instructor would catch a world of $hit if it got to the ctr manager that he was showing this AND said he actually did it in the aircraft..

Done an hour early?...well...I'll skip the inverted ILS and be at Happy Hour - the real reason for recurrent!!

..

 

[some_dude]

Is he still there? Wow!! I had him as an instructor in the Jet Commander back in 1986.

And, regarding your "Julio" scenario, G200, legend has it that SimuFlite (and maybe FSI) used to demonstrate a space shuttle arrival in the GIV sim, with the reversers out at altitude. "Just for fun." Until Julio or some other idiot tried it in the airplane and scared themselves (and damaged the aircraft).

I'm not a G guy, this is just a story I've heard from friends, so maybe it's not true. Anyone know?

Speaking of FSI Wilmington, how many out there had "Dick Washer" for an Astra or Westwind instructor?
(That is his real name by the way, and he is a great guy none the less)

 

[jknight8907]

Yeah. NASA uses the real deal (Gulfstream 2) to train astronauts to land the shuttle. The left seat is set up shuttle-style, the right seat is normal Gulfstream. It's fly-by-wire so it handles like the shuttle, and the reversers are deployed at altitude so as to get that one-of-a-kind descent angle.

 

[westwind driver]

Fly over the fence at ref+0 to 10,

somewhere over the threshold (50 feet) pull the throttles back 1/2 their current deflection,

apply light forward elevator to compensate for the power reduction (engines thrust line considerations)

fly the airplane into ground effect, it may look like it's gonna slam into the ground, but it wont.

reaching ground effect throttles to idle, 'milk' the yoke as you would in any landing, and when the bottom starts to drop out, start pitching nose up.

It really is a balancing act and the timing has to be just right.

Also, once on the ground, the PNF needs to run the trim forward, or the PF can do it if he/she doesn't get on the tiller. Also, be prepared to pitch forward in the event of a balked landing.

The westwind is easiest to land around the 17.5k-19k pound landing weights. 17k and less the airplane becomes more sensitive in pitch and has greater tendency to float.

Greasing one on in the westwind really is an art. myself and another pilot i fly with grease it on about 6-8 landings out of 10. All depends on the day.

 

[kilroy]

I can usually get a really smooth landing 90% of the time. The trick with me is 100 agl ref+10 slowly pulling back throttles so that right about the flare you are at idle. Now just when you feel the urge to flare don't wait a second and then start pulling back. Make sure the right seat deploys the L/D as soon as the mains hit. The bounce is alot of times a result of the delay in L/D deployment and the fact you are still pulling back even harder when the mains hit therefore the nose is getting lifted higher in the air creating more lift.

The lighter the landing weight the harder it is to roll on.

 

[EAP]

...At 50 ft. I would smoothly bring power to idle with the goal of having just a squirt left by the time the mains were about 6 inches off, while doing this I would allow the A/C to naturaly pitch up due to the reduction of power while running the trim to keep the controls light. Finally, if I still hadn't touched down I would completely close the throttles and hold the pitch attittude while assuring that I had zero side drift, at this point the A/C would usually roll on nicely....Having said that, sometimes it is better to just be lucky rather than good!

The above is a good technique. I flew it for 3 years. Before the "Canoe", I flew the B-737 and MD-80 before my 30 day off bid came through The Canoe reminded me of the -80 in some subtle ways. Mainly, in the fact that in my opinion, the stabilizer enters ground effect right about the time you are ready for touchdown and it throws the whole timing and pitch feel issue off, leading to occasional firm touchdowns. You don't need trailing link gear to land it smoothly, just consistant techniqe, and in my opinion, not too fast of a touchdown (versus most folks who prefer a faster touchdown on this plane)

I flew it at 65-73 percent N1, ref plus 5 unless corrected for winds / gusts, stabilized, yada yada. Then at 30 feet, I would smoothly "chop" the thrust to idle - at the same time, I would "very subtly" apply nose down pressure to account for the natural nose up moment at idle thrust - the net result is the same pitch attitude that you had before. Then at about 15 feet, I'd begin a very mild round-out, and right at about 5 feet, the Westwind's tail enters ground effect and the nose will lower about a degree or so and you get a "thump" touchdown - unless you give a "good tug" on the yoke, to keep the pitch attitude as it was in the final round out. This last (tug on tyhe yoke as the nose dips) seems to be the key, but the rest supports a consistant approach to the final part. I swear, if you get all that down, you will consistantly roll the landings on without being too fast or too slow at touchdown. Right as you feel the mains spin up, crack the reversers to idle deploy, and smoothly fly the nosewheel on. At that point go to 55 percent reverse and keep it there to about 70 knots while you smoothly activate breaking - let it roll a bit and keep the brakes cool. You'll save TONS of break wear on this technique, get smoother landings, and the roll-outs are baby butt smooth without having to use all the runway while still having smoking breaks and expensive break wear. I never used trim in the roundout of flare.

The big caveat to the Canoe is that if you flare it too much, it will bite. The straight wing will allow you to keep it airborne inadvertantly longer, and gives a sharper stall than a swept wing. From what I've seen there is more risk of this at light weight. At some point, you will just have to accept a firm touchdown if you flare for too long (just fly it onto the runway) versus an aggrevated full stall landing at who knows what height.

I will admit I had to work at good landings in the Canoe more than other jets (with an exception for the MD-80 - that one was even more interesting).