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Lack of professionalism

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Guys if we want to start getting paid the amount of money we are worth,

So, how much are we worth? How is that determined? How do you know we aren't getting paid what we are worth already, or more than we're worth?



I don't thing I've ever scene a doctor or lawyer trying to offer their services up for bid.

How are pilots like doctors or lawyers in any meaningful way, I mean something deeper than both being carbon based bipeds?
 
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Listen UP

Well "A(ss) Squared" I suppose you are probably making 250K a year commanding that monstrous DC-6 around the globe. As for the rest of us peons, I know that I am making a hell of a lot less than my father made in the airline business. Their pay scales were actually comparable to doctors and lawyers of that era. Today, the pay scale can be comparable to that of a plumber or electrician. The only difference is they are home in their own beds every night. The sacrifice that we make being away from our families should be compensated. Again, I am quite sure that you are the exception to that rule Mr. DC-6 guy. There are some people that have a life (and don't have time to post 2,831+ times to flightinfo.com) and a family outside aviation. It's time we get paid!
 
Hmmm well calling names is certainly the mark of a true professional.

Other than that, you've utterly failed to respond in any intelligent manner

Once again. How have you determined what a pilot is worth? Seems like it shouldn't be unreasonable question, You're the one making claims about waht a pilot is worth, so how have you determined that? Something more concrete than "I'd wish I made more money" wishing you were paid more doesn't make you worth that.

We all would like to make more money, myself included. Your remarks about my compensation are meaningless nonsense. Apparently, a little irrational ranting because you can't think of anything to say that makes sense.

So why should a pilot be paid like a doctor, and not like an electrician or a plumber? Sure I'd like to have a doctor's salary, but wanting it doesn't make me *worth* that. The truth of the matter is that pilot is a great deal closer to a plumber than a doctor in any meaningful comparison. A pilot and a plumber are both blue collar workers which require some thechnical knowledge, but nothing approaching the education required to be a Doctor. Just because you wear a white shirt doesn't mean you aren't a blue collar worker.
 
And if you don't know the difference between "scene" and "seen", you deserve to have the same compensation as a Wal*Mart greeter. A true professional can construct a simple sentence.

If being home in your bed at night is important to you, perhaps you have decided on the wrong job? Perhaps, you should be flight instructing instead?
 
ERJ Mech, if you are going to point fingers. Maybe you should look at your own statement. I think you might need to fix those grammatical errors.I do know the difference between scene and seen, but I should have proofread my statement before posting on this childish site. I can see that you guys are obviously happy with the pay the way it is and hope you never work for a real company. Let me ask you guys this. How many times does a plumber risk his life in a day? Exactly, what emergency items do they need to know? How many lives is he responsible for taking care of?
You might consider yourself to be a blue collar worker, but I am a white collar professional and take pride in the amount of training and experience that I take with me. Maybe, when you fly for an airline you might be able to differentiate the difference. Good luck guys.
 
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Any person is worth what another person is willing to pay for the service rendered.

Today in this industry we have a situation where other people are willing to do the same job for less & less compensation. The people at the top of the pay scale have priced themselves out of the market, so to speak. When other people are willing & able to start an entirely new company to compete in the market place with lower cost (pay) & as longs as pilots are willing to work for the pay offered there will be turmoil in the industry. This is not limited to the regional sector only.

A comparison to the doctor is not valid. Most of the employees in the industry have health insurance. Some good, maybe some not so good. We don't care what the DR makes or what he charges per visit because we are only responsible for a small portion of the cost. If each person had to pay their DR bill out of pocket, you can bet that we would all be looking for the lowest cost DR in town. The plumber is closer to our situation. If the plumber prices his services to high, we would look for another plumber. If those prices get high enough other people would say "Why don't I start my own plumbing business and do the same work for less money?" I would still make enough money to be happy & raise a family.

The plumber example is kind of funny. We had a 20 year captain quit & start his own plumbing company. Said that he would make the same money, be home more often, with less head aches.
 
And as a plumber you get paid more for working weekends and nights. Holidays are premium pay and if some one gets on your nerves, you tell them you are going for parts, charge them the same amount of money as though you are working, go have lunch and get back to the job site when you damn well want to. Lets do a reality check:

1. Call a plumber to come bid on a job. One may be there when the "are able to get away", and will do the job "when they can work it in" while making 75 to 200 an hour with a paid helper (you pay for). And you have no choice because of the 4 plumbers you called only one had the time to call you back.

2. Place an add for a pilot and hundreds will apply, many will offer to pay for their training, work for sub standard wages any time, any where, live 15 to a one room crash pad, must only eat the 10 packages of noodles for a buck, and wonder why they are not making the money "Dad' did.

IMHO the plumbers have a better union.......

You get paid what the market will pay.....

JAFI
 
ERJ Let me ask you guys this. How many times does a plumber risk his life in a day?



Oh, pulleeease don't fall back on that silly "I risk my life" fantasy. Being an airline pilot is a pretty safe occupation. Besides, that has nothing to do with how much you get paid. If risk was a determining factor, Farm workers would get paid a lot more. By that rationale, I should get paid more than you, as there are more risks associated with flying half-century old radial engined planes in Alaska than flying your Airbus. If I decide I don't care for the risks, I can always move on.




How many lives is he responsible for taking care of?

Actually, quite a few. The work that plumbers do has considerable potential to become a hazard if not done correctly. You remember the little plumbing problem in the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal India? Killed 3,000 people on the spot and another 20,000 died late of the effects. Less dramatically and more locally, there's a couple of different ways the boiler in your house can kill you if not installed correctly. If you don't think that plumbing has important safety implications, it's merely a measure of your ignorance. You average city bus driver could wipe out a bunch of people with a little inattention at a railroad grade crossing. That doesn't, however, make plumbing, driving buses, or piloting a profession though. They’re trades, useful, necessary trades. Not professions.


You might consider yourself to be a blue collar worker, but I am a white collar professional and

It doesn't matter how long or loud you insist, nor how hard you stamp your feet when you proclaim yourself a professional, It is still an absurd claim. When you get right down to it, a pilot is paid to operate equipment. It happens to be equipment that flies, but operating equipment is a blue collar occupation. It is certainly not a learned profession. One of the fundamental characteristics of a profession is that it requires higher education. Absolutely none is required to be a pilot. The sum total of classes I took in aviation was a private pilot groundschool class I took many, many years ago. That's it. the rest was self study, comparatively simple self study. You aren't even required to have a highschool diploma to get the highest pilot certification available. Even a plumber is required to have a diploma or a GED in most states.

Let's compare what it takes to acquire the minimum qualifications to get paid to practice without supervision:

Pilot: About 6 months from never having touched an airplane to Commercial pilot. Relatively little of that 6 months will actually be spent in the classroom. A couple of ridiculously easy written tests for which you can buy the answers in almost any book store, or memorize then from a cheezy videotape. A couple of demonstrations of your physical skills, and you're good to go.

Doctor: 8 years of some of the most challenging and competitive university courses there are, and then a minimum of 2 years of highly structured, supervised clinical work, OJT or Apprenticeship, if you will. BTW, John and Martha don’t sell a videotape to memorize the MCAT and medical board exams answers.

Ummm yeah becoming a pilot is almost exactly like being a doctor.

In fact, it probably more difficult to get the minimum requirements to practice plumbing on your own than to pilot on your own without supervision for pay. It varies from state to state, but a 2 year apprenticeship is common, with a 4 year program not unheard of, to become a journeyman plumber.

........take pride in the amount of training and experience that I take with me.

As does any Master Plumber, I'm sure. Again, it varies from state to state but you can bet the it takes training and experience to progress from Journeyman to Master, and in some states you have continuing education requirements and periodic testing to show that you are maintaining your knowledge of codes and such. In fact it takes much longer to become a master plumber than an ATP. It is entirely possible to go from zero flight time to ATP in about a year and a half. I think you can find schools selling this as a service. To become a master plumber requires a number of years of experience, % years is the median amount, and it can be as much as 9 years required (Hawaii) Plumbing credentials require a great deal more experience to acquire than pilot credentials, and often, more training, yet for all this, plumbing, like piloting is still a blue collar occupation. Only the most pompous, pretentious and self important master plumber would attempt to insist that plumbing is a profession or that plumbers are professionals. A plumber could, like a pilot, wear a white shirt and tie to work, but that doesn’t change the essential nature of the occupation. Both are very much blue collar. Not that there's anything wrong with that. On the contrary, being a blue collar worker (and formerly employed as an educated and licensed professional in a profession which had it's blue collar aspects) I have nothing but respect for blue collar workers. The world would grind to a halt without plumbers and electricians and aircraft mechanics, and pilots and heavy equipment operators to do the heavy lifting. So, I mean absolutely no slight when I say "blue collar". It speaks volumes about your character that you perceive it as such.

Maybe, when you fly for an airline you might be able to differentiate the difference.

An educated professional would understand that ad-hominem remarks aren’t substitutes for reasoned debate, nor would an educated professional use such a clumsy tautology in an effort to appear erudite.


Oh, and it should be noted that you once again have neglected to answer the initial question that apparently caused you to revert to your childish name calling and insults. To wit: How much are you worth and how did you determine that?
 
Any person is worth what another person is willing to pay for the service rendered.

Today in this industry we have a situation where other people are willing to do the same job for less & less compensation.

Place an add for a pilot and hundreds will apply, many will offer to pay for their training, work for sub standard wages any time, any where, live 15 to a one room crash pad, must only eat the 10 packages of noodles for a buck, and wonder why they are not making the money "Dad' did.

IMHO the plumbers have a better union.......

You get paid what the market will pay.....

Exactly, your worth is determined by the market, not by what you think you *should* be paid, or whether you wear a white shirt to work at a blue collar trade.

It is intersting to note that most would agree that compensation is dragged down far more by pilots who actually pay companies to fly in thier airplanes on revenue flights, like Airmack did at Gulfstream; far more than it is dragged down by some guy using ebay to advertise contract pilot services.

I guess that irony isn't Airmack's strong suit.

I bet you won't find many Journeyman plumbers who will pay a company $20,000 to install heating systems for 6 months. If you're paying a company to work for them, it's not a profession, it's not even a trade, it's a hobby.

ERJMECH, do you have many A&P mechanics paying companies to wrench on thier airplanes? I'm guessing not.

Thank you Airmack for making the worth of a pilot, as determined by the market place, just a little bit less by having paid a company to fly thier airplanes in revenue service. You are truly a shining example of the professionalism of which you speak so loudly.
 

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