Labor is not the problem

[surplus1]

Re: points

The ones that get on here and say we need a new model, I say great. I hope you realize that the new model does not include paying you any thing like the old model.

You were doing good until you got to that part. While I may agree that this is not exactly the right time to be asking for big increases at the "premium" carriers, it's also true that the well managed carriers can hold the status quo unless things get really worse (like another airline related attack).

UAL and USAir have obviously been mismanaged. AA & DAL are doing better so are NWA and CAL. The AA & CAL guys may well need to back off of big raise ambitions. DAL can probably hold the line (thanks in part to its big fleet of revenue jets). All the big bananas will have to belt tighten though.

Outfits like enigma's can afford a reasonable raise and should pay it. They're doing quite well, but it's not going to be Delta Plus or anything close.

However, the idea that we're all going to have to go back to the stone age to put smiles on management faces is not less exaggerated than the idea that we can get a 30% raise.

A bit of realism on both sides usually works.

 

[publisher]

counter

My point on new model is this.

To change to a new model is OK but if your union contracts, fleet, airport leaseholds, etc, etc, were geared to the old, it is very difficult to do because people do not by their nature want to change from that which attracted them at first.

If I want to take United to an all A320 fleet and pay all the pilots a flat $100,000 to work, that is not going to sit well with the 777 guys making more than that.

As to a pay scale for an airline, without getting into all the complexities, starting would be about $30k for a FO on a regional jet and top end would be between $175k and $200k international large aircraft. Frankly I am more concerned on the top end and agree with many of the posts on the low end.

These issues are a good deal more complex than I can go into here.

 

[enigma]

Re: counter

My point on new model is this. .................

As to a pay scale for an airline, without getting into all the complexities, starting would be about $30k for a FO on a regional jet and top end would be between $175k and $200k international large aircraft. Frankly I am more concerned on the top end and agree with many of the posts on the low end.

These issues are a good deal more complex than I can go into here.

Publisher, are you also willing to come up with a maximum pay for a CEO? How about just setting an artificial limit on the amount of profit that a privately held corporation can earn? Yea, that's the ticket, lets just limit all airlines to making $XXXX per year. Maybe the excess profits from the good quarters can go to the homeless or maybe the poor.

I always heard that, "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander".

regards,
8N

 

[publisher]

yes

Frankly, I think that the management of these companies are paid obscene amounts of money.

In this country, we tend to reward short term thinking.

In business, balance is critical. Doing the things in the short term that allow you to accomplish your longer term business plan. What we have is thinking that ends at the next bonus period.

That holds true on the labor side as well. There has to be balance between what is being performed and what it is worth. My ex wife once worked at a plumbers union. We laughed at the fact she was paid about 4 times what the job was worth at any other company.

We are not in balance here and not just in this industry. The situations at Enron and Worldcom are examples of management gone amok in short term pursuits.

This is also why dinosaurs like UAL cannnot get out of their own way.

 

[enigma]

Re: yes

Frankly, I think that the management of these companies are paid obscene amounts of money.

Agreed.

But those obscene amounts are what they were contracted to work for. Same for the unions. Contrary to popular belief, the unions DO NOT hold a gun to managements head to get a pay raise. Contracts are negotiated business agreements that reflect an amount that management agreed to. Period.

DAL proved in the Comair strike, that they are willing to take a strike in order to maintain a pay scale that they are happy with.

AA was willing to take a strike during the late ninetys. Proving to me, that the negotiation process provides results that are in line with sound business principles. If the unions were able to rachet the wages up to an unsustainable level, it's the fault of the managers who agreed to those unsustainable levels.

I do believe that a labor group should consider the need to protect the long term health of their employer when negotiation for wages. Unfortunately, mangement has largely lost the trust of the pilots who are/were willing to agree to things such as less money. UAL pilots accepted concessions in the last decade. When times got better, management did not reciprocate. Now management wants concessions again, and the pilots appear willing to agree to those concessions. In light of this and other examples, I find that labor has historically been more than agreeable to working to help keep their companies afloat.

I have a hard time blaming labor for being skeptical and obstinate when I consider history in light of something my mother-in-law used to say.

"Dump on my once, shame on you. Dump on me twice, shame on me."

From my perspective, management has dumped on labor far to often to deserve any cooperation. Yet we offer it anyway. We just keep coming back for more, because the majority of us love it.

Please think about that when you automatically go into your "blame the overpaid pilots" response to every post.

regards
8N

 

[publisher]

OK

I do not think that I blame overpaid pilots in every post. Cannot remember blaming much on that.

While you point out that it is a so called "agreed to" negotiated deal, I have been too closely involved in labor negotiations to believe that. It' s one of those, the closer you get, the worse it looks kind of thing.

Union leaderships actions like management reflect short term thinkers. The fact is that the economics today are that no one can afford a strike anymore. Airlines continue to burn their "hidden reserves" through clever financial deals. The public has no loyalty and will desert you for another carrier in a heart beat.

We will see where all this goes for we are in an adjustment period/ It is not a matter of a blame game. Realistically labor and management are not on an equal keel for if management does not come up with a model and means to generate profit and returns on assets, there will be no need for labor.