LA Times: "Are pilots flying beyond their limits?"

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I have no problem flying a couple of hours more in a day. I just want the US rules changed so pilots work less, and have a higher minimum crew rest after each work period.

cliff
GRB

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

correct me if I am wrong but you all knew the pay before sigining up for flight training....you hopefully read forums before sigining up for flight training...quit bitching now and say you did not know....flying was a passion for everyone when getting their private or military initial training....now it is a job....a better one for some than others. It is people that decide to work under these miserable conditions that are the problem.....hopefully the regionals disappear or once the mins increase get people that are not willing to work for peanuts.

...Pretty easy to be critical from your lofty money seat on that SWA 737, isn't it?

I have been an airline pilot for nearly 12 years, not long in the grand scheme of things but long enough to have an idea of how the industry has changed and surely long enough to know that your post is pretty much full of crap.

First of all, who knows what they are getting into when the are in their early 20's? The answer is NO ONE. I don't care how much research you do, how many people you talk to or how careful you are you will not have any idea how your career will turn out in ANY field, much less aviation. Those who's plans have fallen into place have simply been fortunate enough to have events line up with their hopes. Many, many outstanding individuals have seen their careers stagnate or even end for no other reason than capricious luck.

As for my own situation, I am not complaining. Sure, I have been stuck at a regional for a bunch of reasons, but I have been fortunate enough to remain employed. But don't tell me that I, or anyone else, truly knew what they were getting into. My QOL, schedule and pay have all changed drastically enough for me to know that there was no way I could have forseen any of the changes that have occurred.

As for your comment about the regionals and the pay, you are forgetting who is REALLY to blame for the existance of "bottom feeders." This problem goes a long, long way back... Back to the first time an airplane departed (a Beech Queen Air, IIRC) in 1968ish being piloted by crew that wasn't on the seniority list of the company who's paint was on the tail. The fact is, the all exulted "big aeroplane" pilots decided that there was a class of flying that wasn't worth protecting. Now you have 90 seat DC-9 like airplanes cruising the J routes with FOs making peanuts. Don't blame that kid in the right seat... He just wants a job and doesn't (can't!) have any idea about what he is really getting into. Blame your selfish forefathers and their lack of diligence in protecting the trade.

That system that was created a few years before I was born was the system I ended up with... Not the one that I or any one of my regional compatriots created. Most of us earned our time and simply got the job we could get. Some were luckier than others. As for PFT (that WILL come up here)... That's a whole 'nuther ball of wax and is very, very wrong.

Your post could be interpreted to mean that you don't think fighting for better work rules, better pay and safer industry practices at the regionals is worth it. According to your logic, we should all just not work at the regionals. Well, I can tell you that as a regional pilot I have seen the pendulum swing from ok, to pretty darn good, to not so great to downright horrible as the economy has done its thing. At the companies I have been associated with, levels of safety awareness by management and QOL seem to change on a whim. Instead of accepting the situation or quiting, I would much rather have regional pilots fight to elevate their profession. Wouldn't them making themselves a little more like the all-exulted-major-airline-pilot-supreme be a good thing?

 

[Quack]

Great post! Red Dog, easy to sit and point fingers from your six figure salary at SWA, when we're all just trying to put food on the table as "lowly regional pukes". I mean come on do you really think that people would/will ever stop going to the regionals for work? What's the first thing you do when you get your degree/ratings out of college (non aviation degree too)? Get a J O B ! who does all the hiring for newly licensed commercial pilots? Ding ding ding...the regionals! so to say that if people stop going there they will raise the pay is a skewed argument because there will always be people going to the regionals no matter the pay due to career progression. Really the only thing that would probably stop people from becoming a pilot is if guys like you started making $60,000 per year for the rest of your career. As long as there are big paychecks "somewhere" in this industry, there will be new pilots. I tell you what, if you decide to give up 50% of your salary for your career, i'll quit and you'll never have to worry about me "stealing" your job and whining that i didn't get enough sleep on my last overnight because my company is too cheap to hire more pilots? do we have a deal? The only thing regional guys/gals can do now is try to make things like fatigue, pay, qol, etc get better and raise the bottom scale.

 

[Flyer1015]

longer if he has to hop a red-eye. After arrival, he tries to sleep through the early morning on a reclining chair in a crew lounge, which big airports usually offer. About 45 minutes before getting to his plane, he cleans up and buys the first of three or four large coffees he will drink during the shift.

Now who's fault is that? I believe Rebecca Shaw commuted through the night and slept on a recliner.

No one forced him to commuter from LA, one of the most expensive cities in the US, to a Pinnacle base. And most certainly, he is unprofessional to commute through the night on a red eye, and arrive to start a 5 leg day without being properly rested. Your paying passengers deserve better. Either pack your crap and move to MSP/MEM/DTW or commute and be in the night before, with plenty of sleep before you start your trip.

 

[Flyer1015]

blame your selfish forefathers and their lack of diligence in protecting the trade.

amen and preach on brotha!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Now who's fault is that? I believe Rebecca Shaw commuted through the night and slept on a recliner.

No one forced him to commuter from LA, one of the most expensive cities in the US, to a Pinnacle base. And most certainly, he is unprofessional to commute through the night on a red eye, and arrive to start a 5 leg day without being properly rested. Your paying passengers deserve better. Either pack your crap and move to MSP/MEM/DTW or commute and be in the night before, with plenty of sleep before you start your trip.

Very true.

I commute and I recognize my professional responsibility to the public trust. It is an ethical imperative that I arrive for duty well rested and physiologically prepared for duty. That being said...

I have changed bases, mostly unwillingly, 8 times in 12 years over two airlines. It must be recognized that there are instances, especially at the regional level, that commuting becomes an economic imperative for a pilot. Few of us, especially those who have families, could absorb the cost of multiple moves. If my contract stipulated reasonable moving expense coverage I would have gladly moved into base. As it is, my rate of pay is insufficient to support a family of 4 in the NYC area.

Even so, it is still the commuting pilot's responsibility to ensure they are fit to fly and that they arrive at work on time.

 

[Nevets]

Now who's fault is that? I believe Rebecca Shaw commuted through the night and slept on a recliner.

No one forced him to commuter from LA, one of the most expensive cities in the US, to a Pinnacle base. And most certainly, he is unprofessional to commute through the night on a red eye, and arrive to start a 5 leg day without being properly rested. Your paying passengers deserve better. Either pack your crap and move to MSP/MEM/DTW or commute and be in the night before, with plenty of sleep before you start your trip.

FWIW, I heard captain Prater say during one of the hearings that she would have been legal to work the flight she commuted on and then work her schedule on Colgan.

 

[johnpeace]

Mr. Babbitt talked about plans for the next year, when the FAA will roll out a slew of changes that will impact air travel. New training standards will likely be proposed for regional airlines, requiring them to step up to training levels practiced at mainline airlines.

This doesn't make any sense.

The training we got at ASA was superlative. We had a new FAA guy observing on my checkride who had spent a career at DAL. He was observing his 2nd ASA checkride and couldn't get over how much better the training department at ASA was than DAL's.

It's not TRAINING standards, you idiot...it's WORK RULES that are the difference between the regionals and the majors.

As if you didn't already know that, tool!

Professional pilots flying for the regional airlines should have known what they were or are getting themselved into before applying or submitting their resumes to the regional of their choice.

Until I was furloughed, I got:
- cheap health insurance
- a second income
- 4-6 days a month at work, 12 or so other days 'on call' working my real job
- a small paycheck...but really pretty generous when you consider how much actual work I did.
- free airline travel benefits for my whole family.

The regional airline job is a great second job!

Treat it as a second job and you won't have anything to complain about.

On the other hand, you can seriously ******************** youself by thinking of it as a 'career'.

 

[Kalifornia]

This doesn't make any sense.

The training we got at ASA was superlative. We had a new FAA guy observing on my checkride who had spent a career at DAL. He was observing his 2nd ASA checkride and couldn't get over how much better the training department at ASA was than DAL's.

It's not TRAINING standards, you idiot...it's WORK RULES that are the difference between the regionals and the majors.

As if you didn't already know that, tool!



Until I was furloughed, I got:
- cheap health insurance
- a second income
- 4-6 days a month at work, 12 or so other days 'on call' working my real job
- a small paycheck...but really pretty generous when you consider how much actual work I did.
- free airline travel benefits for my whole family.

The regional airline job is a great second job!

Treat it as a second job and you won't have anything to complain about.

On the other hand, you can seriously ******************** youself by thinking of it as a 'career'.

Hey fruit basket and hippy s**t name, JohnPeace , this is one idiotic post. "Pretty generous?!" WTF, over? "Free airline travel benefits for my whole family". Well zogosh darn, that's just fantastic. You are the very type of person, the twits that decide to make a career change and try to the airline pilot thing, that have especially helped bring down the profession by pretending it's your little hobby. You are the anti-Sulley You could learn a lesson from your own signature.

 

[johnpeace]

bring down the profession by pretending it's your little hobby.

Sorry you feel that way.

It's working for me.

You feel free to save 'the profession'...I'm going to keep on just worrying about taking care of me and my family the best way I can.

 

[rtmcfi]

Sorry you feel that way.

It's working for me.

You feel free to save 'the profession'...I'm going to keep on just worrying about taking care of me and my family the best way I can.

Similar words and thoughts have been uttered by many just as they cross a picket line.

 

[CX880]

Similar words and thoughts have been uttered by many just as they cross a picket line.

get lost.

 

[CX880]

Sorry you feel that way.

It's working for me.

You feel free to save 'the profession'...I'm going to keep on just worrying about taking care of me and my family the best way I can.

It's much easier for them to preach when they have a job.

 

[Flyer1015]

get lost.

Spoken like a true GoJetter. :laugh: