Just wanted to you guys to know...You DO make a difference.

[Nindiri]

If you want to be a CFI, be a CFI. If you want to be an airline pilot, then be an airline pilot. Being a CFI is a way to build time to get the regional job; if you can go directly to the regional job, then instructing is a waste of valuable time. As someone already pointed out, instructing is going to cost you big money in the longterm. Are a few communication skills worth 300K?

 

[gkrangers]

So you don't see anything wrong with paying for a job? Cuz I don't know many people getting hired with a wet commercial and 250, or less, hours.

 

[Nindiri]

Nope. It's all numbers and investment; if investing 20K now means I'll make 300K more over the course of a career, then it's an easy choice.

 

[Berry McCockner]

So you don't see anything wrong with paying for a job? Cuz I don't know many people getting hired with a wet commercial and 250, or less, hours.

No, there is nothing wrong with it. In my new hire class there was at least 12 out of 30 that had less than 300 hours. It happens all the time. I think Flight safety has contracts with ASA, Con ex, and a few others. And thats only one school.
"Paying your dues" is such an old-school way of thinking. Maybe we should start a Hazing ritual for new-hires. we can take them out back and beat them with a rubber hose.

 

[IHateMgmt]

Do the math. If you had an extra two years to add to your airline career, at todays pay scale, at a major you would earn about an extra 300K before you retire. I think thats a pretty conservative estamate. Even so, I think that far outways the 50K or so you put down to fast track your career. Get a loan G-code.

Berry, you might be a decent guy and all, but seriously, attitudes like yours make me sick. Why is it that you want to be an airline pilot so bad? Maybe it's the shinny jet or flashy uniform. You think you're gonna score with some hot FA's or something. Here's a clue, if you're in aviation for the money, you're the biggest dumba$$ of them all. Do us all a favor and get out.

GCode, I instructed two years, flew boxes another year, met some cool people and had some great experiences while I was at it. (Not to mention, learned how to fly an airplane) It's a tough road, but can be rewarding. Take care.

 

[Berry McCockner]

Berry, you might be a decent guy and all, but seriously, attitudes like yours make me sick. Why is it that you want to be an airline pilot so bad? Maybe it's the shinny jet or flashy uniform. You think you're gonna score with some hot FA's or something. Here's a clue, if you're in aviation for the money, you're the biggest dumba$$ of them all. Do us all a favor and get out.

GCode, I instructed two years, flew boxes another year, met some cool people and had some great experiences while I was at it. (Not to mention, learned how to fly an airplane) It's a tough road, but can be rewarding. Take care.

We're all in aviation cause we have a pasion for it. But you can't tell me you wouldn't like to make 6 figures doing something you love. Don't b$llshit me. We're all in it for the money among other things. If you don't care about owning a house, buying a car, having a family you can support, or may or maybe taking a nice vacation then go back to being a flight instructor. I'm sure the schedule is better. And get the hell off this forum

 

[Flapjack]

PFT guys seem to think that going that route saves you a lot of time. It only takes a year of full time CFI work to get another 700 hours. That year is valuable, and it will save you a ton of money, right when you need it most.

That hard working CFI is probably going to be hired at the airline to be an instructor, LCA, or APD because he has more instructing experience, more flight experience, and character...and that LCA/APD/Sim Instructor on his resume means he is FAR more likely to get picked up by a quality major airline.

Did you know that there are thousands of guys out there with a ton of line pilot, CRJ captain time? What sets YOU apart from every other swingin' you-know-what? You think you'll just zoom to 1000 turbine PIC and collect your job at the major, or what?

Who wins - the tortoise or the hare?

Go ahead - pay for your training. Be shortsighted. Take on 20-30K more in loans, more than you will make in your entire first year flying that shiny jet. You just spotted your airline an entire year of your professional pilot labor for free. You have just forfeited your right to complain about your contract for all time. And you WILL be complaining about your horrible pay, especially after 5 years in the land of lowered expectations, AKA the regional airline.

Let everyone know you are stepping on the gas pedal with both feet in the race to the absolute rock bottom. Who cares about the contract, or the wages, when you are BUYING A JOB? Have fun giving up several hundred per month out of your measly 1200/mo. regional FO check to pay those loans.

Is there any wonder why this industry is in the toilet? People are willing to work for free...I can't believe it...WORK FOR FREE?! All for the belief that they will be first in line to collect that major airline job, as soon as they get their turbine PIC. I got news for ya, it ain't that easy.

G-Code rocks. I'd recommend someone like him, I promise you I would not even consider receommending a PFT pilot.

 

[Flapjack]

"We're all in it for the money among other things. If you don't care about owning a house, buying a car, having a family you can support, or may or maybe taking a nice vacation then go back to being a flight instructor."

If you are in it for the money, then try this for size. A 25K loan to buy your job, 6% interest, 20 year term costs almost 43,000. If you, at age 25, invested that 200 bucks per month and got an 8% return you would get 128K after 20 years. Difference of: 171,000. Park that investment, don't add a penny after that 20 years, and you'll be more than 540,000 ahead of a PFT pilot at age 60.

This is what I call an investment, not the notion of "investing" to buy a job at a regional a year sooner which MIGHT get you hired at a major a year sooner, thus MAYBE getting you 300K more over the course of a career, as long as you don't medical out before retirement age. What's more likely to pay out 35 years from now? Pilots are notorious for making poor investments.

Still sound like a good deal? Look at ANY regional airline. Look at who is geting hired at majors. Does that follow seniority order? Why are there 6-7 year prop captains getting hired at majors, when 10 year jet captains can't get hired?

It's not just who gets to the left seat first. PFT is a very high price to pay for a lousy job that gets you the exact same chances to get to a major as anyone else.

Game, set, match. YOU get the hell off the forum.

 

[hockeypilot44]

my feeling on Gulfstream

I think it is funny how a kid will pay Gulfstream International to fly a Beech 1900 that flies paying passengers and makes money, then turns around and expects a regional airline like Pinnacle to pay him/her to do the same thing that he/she paid Gulfstream to do. Does anyone else care that Gulfstream is owned by an Eastern scab or that the FAA shut down their flight school because it was unsafe? Given all these things, someone that went there will bitch about how he/she cannot pay his/her bills because of Pinnacle's low pay and his/her 30,000 dollar loan. These are the same douchebags that use "I'm an airline pilot" as a pick-up line at the bars. Does anyone else care that it was two Gulfstream pilots that took a CRJ up to FL410, then killed themselves or that two other Gulfstream pilots ran an aircraft off the runway in MKE about a month later, took out some lights, then tried to proceed as if nothing ever happened? At my airline, the two most hated captains are from Gulfstream. Myself and many others pref bid to not fly with them because they are that bad. These are the type of pilots that would cross a picket line or take a job at *************************s just to try and get ahead. Most are in it for themselves, have no degree, and are pieces of sh*t. That's why I would never PFT. I have pride in everything I do even if I do not make that much money. I fly in south Florida and very rarely do I ever get any IFR. Flying a Beech 1900 VFR all day from the right seat is not as great experience as these kids think. Most are pilot wannabes that have to think there experience at Gulfstream was the best ever due to the fact that they will still be paying off their loans twenty years from now. There, that made me feel better. Flame away losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[IHateMgmt]

We're all in aviation cause we have a pasion for it. But you can't tell me you wouldn't like to make 6 figures doing something you love. Don't b$llshoot me. We're all in it for the money among other things. If you don't care about owning a house, buying a car, having a family you can support, or may or maybe taking a nice vacation then go back to being a flight instructor. I'm sure the schedule is better. And get the hell off this forum

Don't get all pissy at me because you are finally realizing that you were fed a great big load of BS when you sold your soul for your shinny jet job. There are no shortcuts in life, you'll get what you earned.

 

[ROSWELL41]

This thread is making me sick. I'm sure all you PFTers need to tell yourselves that you did the right thing before you fall asleep at night. I'm a CFI, I love CFIing. Someday, maybe I'll fly for an airline. Flying isnt the be all or end all, its just a job. I can't believe you would pay someone to let you work for them.

 

[Leroy Smith]

PFT???? Have some f'n pride in yourself and be a man (or woman)!

The CFI (II/MEI) is the most important person in aviation. One good CFI can easily change the future for 100's of other pilots. The bottom-feeding, time-building instructors are the same jokers who are willing participants in the whipsaw and racing to the bottom when they get into their shiny jets.

There aren't many other ways to learn as much about aviation as you can by teaching. Of course, you have to put some EFFORT into it. Just showing up, cus you are god's gift to airplanes, and going around the pattern with some sucker who doesnt know any better may make you a few $$s and fill a few columns in your logbook, but that's about it. Teach some folks how to fly instruments (not just fake their way past a DE), and you will be as sharp an instrument pilot you can be. Then you will be ready to fly some boxes. Or some people. At 250 hours, you dont even know what you dont know.

Are you gonna miss those couple of years of seniority? Maybe. The company you get hired by with a wet Comm. AMEL may put you back out on the steet in a year or two. What's that seniority doing for you then? The ability to really fly an airplane and being a decent human being are qualities that will get you anywhere you want to go in aviation, with patience and hard work.

Want it all now? Dont want to put in all the effort? Want the shortcuts?
Too important to work at some local FBO?
Too Topgun to help some guy/girl with their X-wind landings?
Too priveledged to be prop-trash?
You are the problem. You are the short-attention-span, instant-gratification-needing, weasel-faced-rat-F'er that is sucking the life out of it all, and not just in aviation.

Want some PFT? Take that chunk of $$ and find yourself a CFI-I who really knows his business, and have him take you out to tangle with some real weather and teach you how to get home safely. Repeatedly. Will it get you a guaranteed interview with a Connection/Express carrier. NO! But do it right, and you will have a good career, no matter what kind of krap might happen along the way.

You will reap what you sow!

 

[Slice121]

Oh please, communicat better? Go back to pre-school if you can't communicate. Learn to teach? You don't do much teaching from the right seat. Delegate responsibility? Your responsibilities will be delegated to you. Read your SP's. Demonstrate PIC?? Not from the right seat bud.
My point is, doing chandelles, lazy eights, and hanging out in the pattern all day watching someone else manipulate the controls does not help you when you get into a RJ. Are you telling me you wouldn't do it differnently for a few extra years of seniority? If your dream is to fly for a major, your time sitting in the right seat of a 172 doesn't amount to much on a resume. Nobodies hiring minumums include CFI time.

I've had to take the aircraft away from an FO three times in the last 2 years(twice from the same person). They were both from "fast track" programs. Never had to worry with a former CFI or other type in the right seat. The fact that any airline CA has to take the jet from his FO(barring incapacitation) is appalling and completely unsat. To the original poster, KUDOS, enjoy the experience. The fast trackers miss out on a lot of cool GA stuff that one doesn't have time for or can't afford once you're a new guy in an RJ. Not to mention you'll learn to make your own decisions without their your hand being held.

 

[Nindiri]

Hmmm. Two years headstart on the seniority list or two years bouncing around in a C-152? As much as 500K more over the course of your career, or some macho pride at having survived two years of students trying to kill you?

Yes, I can see where this would be a tough decision.

 

[xjlifer]

I'd agree with your post with the exception of "...around the northeast". Flying the ol' 1900 in instrument conditions anywhere or in high density altitude areas sharpens the basic flying skills tremendously. I've had a lot of friends and others say that you are the sharpest pilot you'll ever be when you're constantly hand-flying planes like the 1900, Sa-227, or other regional (or is that "commuter"?) turboprops.

Yea problem is your scan is gone in like a month..so it aint worth much. I will say this the time I spent in the sewer tube was fun.....all 3500 hours of it...and the people I flew with were the best.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Also keep in mind that anyone who gives you crap for taking "the easy way" would have done the same thing had they had the opportunity...

Not a chance in hell, chief. Like I said, I enjoy being debt free...and I have the same job and probably more experience than anyone from a pilot factory or PFT outfit my age. The only reason one would be so content after spending so much money at Riddle would be if their mommy and daddy paid for it. Is that the case with you? All of us didn't have that luxury.

 

[007]

I just wanted to thank you guys. I am currently at ERAU in SAT taking night classes. I will be done with the academic portion in March 07'. I WAS planning on going to RAA afterwords because I wanted to fasttrack to that right seat. However, after trolling these forums, I have a new respect for the industry and I refuse to contribute towards the "race to the bottom".

Cheers to you sir, you are a class act.

And to all you SJS's,who are putting him down, it's the road that matters not how quickly you got there.
None of you will make it to 60, can you say heart attack. Get a life.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Wasting your time doing turns around a point? Yeah right- nothing is more professional than watching a guy home into a navaid or get pushed towards the runway on a downwind. ( Hint to those who didn't teach ground reference maneuvers-Not Good!)

 

[Always deferred]

Not a chance in hell, chief. Like I said, I enjoy being debt free...and I have the same job and probably more experience than anyone from a pilot factory or PFT outfit my age. The only reason one would be so content after spending so much money at Riddle would be if their mommy and daddy paid for it. Is that the case with you? All of us didn't have that luxury.

Actually, I'm not talking about PFT. I am against places like GIA or any fasttrack program. And for your information, my parents and an aunt did help put me through Riddle. Am I ashamed of it? No. They helped me get to where I am and I'm happy to say I was able to repay them later when they needed my help. I was immersed in flight training for 5 years before I got to the airlines. I made the best of my opportunity and did what I could to contribute to our airline through volunteering for the union. After my company went out of business, I decided I was worth more than $20/hr at another regional so now I lobby for US Aviation in Washington and for your safety and security.

I was fortunate to have parents who wanted to see me succeed in realizing my dream. I lived it albeit only for a short time. I am grateful to those who helped me along the way. I took nothing for granted and to this day do what I can to improve the QOL for all of you.

 

[Mesa Beer]

I just wanted to thank you guys. I am currently at ERAU in SAT taking night classes. I will be done with the academic portion in March 07'. I WAS planning on going to RAA afterwords because I wanted to fasttrack to that right seat. However, after trolling these forums, I have a new respect for the industry and I refuse to contribute towards the "race to the bottom".

Instead, I have decided to do my training here at Wright Flyers and flight instruct until I have enough time because like many of you said it will make me a better pilot.

Anyway, thats enough ass-kissing, just wanted to let you all know that you do make a change (even if it is a small one).

BTW if any of you live in the SAT area I fully expect you to come fly with me and write a subsequent reccomendation making me look similar to Chuck Yeager, the Wright Brothers, and Charles Lindburg all rolled into one....

are you sure about that? Would you become a worthless suck up if I promised you a quick upgrade or how about a domicile in Maui?

 

[g-code]

are you sure about that? Would you become a worthless suck up if I promised you a quick upgrade or how about a domicile in Maui?

Hahahahah....I will NEVER fly for Mesa.....(well maybe if they are the ONLY regional left standing)....

My target airlines are AWAC and Skywest. Both of them seem to be top among regional carriers so thats where I have set my sights.

 

[BushwickBill]

Just to keep all this in perspective. I'm paying for sim time an instructor time at another school (across the ramp). I couldn't fly with my students today because it was raining. And since I gave the instructor I worked with practicing NDB holds and approaches (for the ameriflight interview) my last 40 bucks cash I couldn't flill up my car with gas. So now I'm sleeping in my flight school. I had a free Mr Pibb that someone left in the frige here for dinner. Tommorow I get to go around the pattern and a VFR cross contry none of which will help me with any upcoming interviews. I just dont understand how I'm supposed to ace a sim ride thats all about IFR when I never get to do it myself.

If airline interviews were all about VFR regs and an unusual attitude recovery session in the sim. Then being a CFI would be great for your career.

 

[NoPax]

My target airlines are AWAC and Skywest. Both of them seem to be top among regional carriers so thats where I have set my sights.

Horizon are top notch also...don't forget about them.

Just to keep all this in perspective. I'm paying for sim time an instructor time at another school (across the ramp). I couldn't fly with my students today because it was raining. And since I gave the instructor I worked with practicing NDB holds and approaches (for the ameriflight interview) my last 40 bucks cash I couldn't flill up my car with gas. So now I'm sleeping in my flight school. I had a free Mr Pibb that someone left in the frige here for dinner. Tommorow I get to go around the pattern and a VFR cross contry none of which will help me with any upcoming interviews. I just dont understand how I'm supposed to ace a sim ride thats all about IFR when I never get to do it myself.

That's one more story to tell later on in life - it builds character. Try living in a hangar for two weeks cos you can't afford a hotel, your cellphone has been disconnected and your outstationed, with no money, food, family etc. You keep warm during the blizzard, by starting the left engine (cos that's where the heater's fuel comes from), and shower during your downtime at an FBO that acknowledges that you're human, and have basic needs.

Not everyone was fortunate to have parents to pony up for degrees and flight training, like Always deferred. I'm not having a go at him for that - if I was in his parents position, sure I'd come up with the money to make my son happy. I'd be dam sure to get my money back with interest, especially if he's no longer flying, or no longer happy - something I'd make clear up front before loaning the money.

Good luck G-code. You will gain so much more from instructing than from getting a higher senority number at a regional/commuter/feeder - some know it as networking. I instructed for 3 years, and have over 300 phone numbers of students I flew with, all sorts of people in all sorts of businesses. At a regional, you'll meet regional pilots, who will endure the same as you and might not be in a position to help when you need it most, and vice versa.

At a recent interview, the President of an air ambulence company called some regional airlines the "ticks sucking the blood of the dying dog" - thought that was an interesting analogy - so choose wisely.

 

[HughBeamont]

Wasting your time doing turns around a point? Yeah right- nothing is more professional than watching a guy home into a navaid or get pushed towards the runway on a downwind. ( Hint to those who didn't teach ground reference maneuvers-Not Good!)

My favorite are the 121 pilots (even captains) who think that you don't need aileron corrections for the takeoff and landing rolls in something as big as a Beech 1900 or Saab 340. Why does the world look crooked? Why are we skipping sideways down the runway?

 

[JohnnyP]

....

I'm sitting here watching yall suck up to each other for some sort of validation? Just do what you feel you need to do and get on with it for heavens sake. Its also humerous to watch the posters who deny how they would take a turbine job (121, 135, whatever) at a lower experience level. Yea right, keep on feeding that crap to yourself. Youd be on that job like a rat on a cheetoe.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Hmmm. Two years headstart on the seniority list or two years bouncing around in a C-152? As much as 500K more over the course of your career, or some macho pride at having survived two years of students trying to kill you?

Yes, I can see where this would be a tough decision.

Hmmm... Two years watching the autopilot drive or two years bouncing around in a 152, teaching and learning more about my art? 500K more over the course of my career or the experience base to use on that night when I would gladly give all of that money back with interest to be anywhere else?

Yes, I can see where this would be a tough decision... You idiot.

I can't believe the crap I am seeing here. We slam PFT'ers until the cows come home. Along comes G-Code and now we slam him for going the CFI route. Hypocracy at it's finest.

I went the instruction route. 1800 hours of it, which is either a lot or a little depending on how you feel about instruction. Now I have been in the part 121 world for 7 years, which isn't a lot no matter what your perspective. Was my flight instruction experience relevant to my being a Dash 8 captain? Absolutely.

My instructing years taught me more than just good stick and rudder skills. It taught me about knowing my limits, how to listen to that little voice that tells pilots when things aren't good and gave me my first taste of real responsibility (Few people fret more than an instructor watching his student's first solo go around the patch). All of it was valuable, especially when one considers that so little of a captain's job is actually flying the airplane. All flight experience is valuable, and the more varied that experience the better the pilot typically is. Instructing in multiple types of airplanes and being responsible for students of all different levels is as much variety as some pilots see.

My concern, and I have seen it on occassion manifest itself, is that some pilots who take the "direct entry track" don't have the well rounded background to be good managers of people and resources, which is what a good captain is, IMHO. Granted, I fly with many UND and Perdue (among others) folks who never instructed... Indeed they never have even held a real job other than part time in college. Most of them do a fine job in flying the airplane, commendable in fact, considering their experience. What is lacking is decision making skills, ones that might have been better honed instructing.

Instructing is not for everyone. If you don't want to do it, fine. But for those who choose that route you will learn more about your chosen craft than anytime else in your career.

 

[Nindiri]

Yes, I can see where this would be a tough decision... You idiot.

hehe A little cranky today, are we? Nobody is slamming this guy, they're just telling him not to pass up opportunities just because someone else doesn't like it.

Instructing is not for everyone. If you don't want to do it, fine. But for those who choose that route you will learn more about your chosen craft than anytime else in your career.

It certainly will, if your chosen craft is flight instructing. But if your chosen craft is flying for an airline then you would be better off both financially and professionally by flying for them as soon as possible.

You don't learn stick and rudder skills by instructing (unless you're one of those instructors that does all the flying instead of the student). If you're that worried about your skills, you need to rent a plane and fly it yourself. You will learn about airline ops and transport category airplanes by flying at an airline.

If you really want to instruct too, then do a little on the side.

 

[gkrangers]

Nobody is going to give you a free shot into a jet at 250 hours.

You'll pay out the ass for it, on top of all your other flight training.

So, you could keep paying and paying, or actually get PAID to fly, build some experience, learn a few things along the way, make some connections, and get that same job in another year or three AND you might actually be in the black, and not the red depending on your financial situation.

If someone came up to me, with my wet commercial in hand, and said "Hey, wanna be an FO on a GIV for 50k year to start and flying 5 days a month?"...What do you think I'd say?

But theres no reason at all for ANYONE to go and drop 20, 50, 80, or 100k on paying to do someone elses job!!!

 

[gkrangers]

And for the love of god, Riddle is no different than any FBO, just on a much larger scale. You get a 4 year degree (THERE IS MORE THAN JUST FARKING STUPID ASS AERO SCI!!) and all your ratings, just like anyone else. Then you graduate, and they kick you to the curb. I don't even know if they have any active bridge programs, but if they do, probably 1% of graduates get on with a regional at 200 hours.

 

[Ride Orange]

G-code, I think you're making a good decision, I certainly learned more about flying from instructing than I did earning my ratings. I can't believe so many people are being negative about your decision (probably those with a chip on their shoulder of some sort, in other words daddy paid for their CRJ type). What I would recommend however is to try and get on with a school that will allow you to teach in the environment you want to work in - Multi-engine and IFR. Sure, some may say teaching turns around a point in a 152 won't get you anywhere (perphaps, but its still not without value), but teaching in a twin and hard IFR will. And like others said, there is some very valuable networking to be had instructing. Many of my regular "single engine currency" flights were airline guys looking to take the family for a ride, and all of them asked me to send them my resume when I was ready to move on.