Just say NO to scud running!

[macfly]

<insert probabilty chart> We all made it, didnt we.

 

[mattpilot]

scud running = low flying ?

 

[FN FAL]

scud running = low flying ?

Yes mattpilot. It is dangerous if not done with proper risk assesment. That's why you won't see contact approaches in 121 and 135 manuals.

It is my belief that there should not be a regulation against it for part 91 flying, as there are many ways that a skilled pilot can go to the airport of their desire by scud running.

Should a 135 or 121 pilot have the luxury of taking a poke at using scud running skills to make a flight work? Maybe...but the reason why 121 or 135 manuals prohibit such things is to prevent liability, facilitate safety of commercial flight and....(guess what?) to prevent the pilot from having to be placed in that position or decision making tree. I see regulations against contact flying in ops manuals as a godsend for pilots that fly in air carriage...they don't get "pushed" and they don't have to think about making something like that work. Nor should they...the paying public expects the highest level of safety.

However, on the flip side of the coin...I as a part 91 pilot, would like to still have the option open for me to be able to do such things.

Here is one case in point. Look at a chart that will let you see the Hilton Head area and the Beaufort S.C. area. Beaufort has no really good approach for getting in. Your USMC served radar approach was the lowest that you could go at that airport. However, shoot the ILS into Hilton Head, break it off and fly a distinct route over the intercoastal water way till you see this bridge that goes to Lady's Island, make a 90 degree right turn. Badda boom, badda bing...you are lined up with the runway at Beaufort, on what was locally called the "bridge one arrival". Would I want to sit in the back of a Falcon 10 while a fractional or 135 pilot pilot did that? NO!

When I am banging around with my family members in the back of a well trusted Senica at a location I know well and while I am in good currency as far as piloting skills?...hell yes. Have you ever driven from Hilton Head to Beaufort? Better have all day.

Back when Meigs was open, sometimes it was better to shoot the ILS at UGN (coming from madison or thereabouts). You would break out on the ILS, hang a louie and fly the coast line plus some miles so that you missed the navy pier...ask for your special VFR and badda bing, you were in. Meanwhile at Meigs, the mins for the approach were based on a fix at another airport...so they were pretty high. Special VFR got you down and in. IFR meant you went to MDW and made a phone call to your dispatch trying to fix getting your customers into moving to the next airport.

While I understand that the terrain in the accident report that was mentioned in the original post is hilly or mountainous...I still believe that contact flying should be optional for part 91 flyers and not at the employers discretion either (part 91 corporate flight ops should possibly prohibit contact flying, if not, their insurance companies probably do!).

Good scud running is done safely, with a plan, with risks managed and a plan "b".

Bad scud running means you hit a levy in a strange state, far away from home, like my dad's flying buddies did. Do you know how low and how bad the weather has to be to hit a levy?

Scud running is not for everyone and as Clint Eastwood said to Hal Holbrook in "Magnum Force"..."A man's got to know his limitations".

Fly safe...don't do anything you are not comfortable with. At the same time, don't take my freedom to judge risk and skill away from me when it's my dime and my time.

 

[350DRIVER]

Good scud running is done safely, with a plan, with risks managed and a plan "b".

Well said, if you know the terrain inside and out then you minimize most risk and vulnerability with regards to cfit. It seems that the majority of these accidents are happening at places where the pilots are not familiar with the surrounding terrain. The bottom line is you must know the airport environment as well as the surrounding terrain features. Sometimes this is easier said than done.....

Common sense goes a long way in this industry..

be smart...

3 5 0

 

[FN FAL]

Rodger that 350Driver! Plus look where we were scud running, over waterways! Not in those foot hills of Arkansas or the Blue Ridge mountains.

On another scud run, I did help return a pair of Katanas to the factory up in Canada once. Had the help of a really good co-worker. Believe it or not, the Canadian ATC up there at the London Ontario airport cleared us as a flight of two, special VFR into the airport area for landing. We had been dealing with one to three mile vis with snow, all the way up the pennensula after passing Port Huron MI on our way east. We had good forecasts that indicated that most of this weather was lake effect and was going to remain steady in this pennensula area. We also had good GPS units and charts. We also knew that tops weren't all that high (trap door/escape hatch/plan B, if you will).

At the time, we were both still in our thirties and we were younger at heart. When I say that, I mean we were more current in many different aircraft, than we would be at any other time of our lives. (I was flying 6 types on a 135 certificate and she was flight instructing and working in the aircraft sales department).

When we left that the factory that afternoon with the plane we were coming back with, there was a pretty much a prevailing one mile vis. Tower advised us we could "take a right circuit to have a look see" and cleared us for take off. Once we were airborne we realized that what was showing up on their machinery as one mile, was better than that in flight, so we asked to go on our way. With the winds as they were, we had a 55 knot ground speed anyway, so any object that we saw at a mile would take better than a minute to hit us.

We underflew an airway out of dodge to make fixing our position easier and by the time we anywhere close to Port Huron, we were back to some pretty good VFR.

I can't say I would have the nads to do that one now...but I can't say that with currency and planning, that I wouldn't do it all over again.

Thanks for bringing up a very good aviation related subject for us to talk about 350 driver!

 

[350DRIVER]

Rodger that 350Driver! Plus look where we were scud running, over waterways! Not in those foot hills of Arkansas or the Blue Ridge mountains.

You are just as aware as I am with regards to knowing how to remain within your own limitations as well as the aircraft limitations. You can safely do this and minimize most risks and keep the odds in your favor as long as you are well aware of your surroundings at all times and always have that "out" should the sh!t hit the fan and turn south quickly. I think it is fair to say that most preventable accidents occur when the pilot goes beyond his own comfort zone and has no alternative plan to put into action when things start to go sour. The bigger and faster equipment require you to be even more ahead of the aircraft especially in wx conditions that can come up and bite you in the @ss should you get behind the aircraft and loose situational awareness. I find it very interesting to research the cfit accidents that have occured while going into places like Aspen/Telluride, many could have been prevented if only the crew caught the "minor" mistake that turned into a major one in a very short amount of time.

On another scud run, I did help return a pair of Katanas to the factory up in Canada once. Had the help of a really good co-worker. Believe it or not, the Canadian ATC up there at the London Ontario airport cleared us as a flight of two, special VFR into the airport area for landing. We had been dealing with one to three mile vis with snow, all the way up the pennensula after passing Port Huron MI on our way east. We had good forecasts that indicated that most of this weather was lake effect and was going to remain steady in this pennensula area. We also had good GPS units and charts. We also knew that tops weren't all that high (trap door/escape hatch/plan B, if you will).

I always found it quite interesting when I would have a Canada trip to a small uncontrolled strip with only the NDB approach to get in. Canada controllers always seemed to give whatever I wanted at most any times. I think they really are counting on you to know how to make this work under not so good circumstances and wx conditions. My Canadien flying/experience really taught me to respect even the most minor details on an approach plate. It was always something else to get cleared for the NDB approach 30 miles out and then a basic "good luck" from the controllers after they gave the number to cancel crash and rescue. I think in more ways than one we really are spoiled with our ATC system here in the states. I would always joke with the other crews about the differences between our set up versus the Canada procedures and atc system.


I think it comes down to one simple element and factor which would be knowing exactly what one can get away with safely and should you fail on attempt one then what will be the consequences for the failure.


good topic-

3 5 0

 

[A Squared]

Yes mattpilot. It is dangerous if not done with proper risk assesment. That's why you won't see contact approaches in 121 and 135 manuals.

Actually, My 121 manual authorizes contact approaches

 

[OtterFO]

Asquared,

Thats because your POI doesn't comprehend your company's FOM (no small advantage when dealing with him). Has anyone bumped him in a village to do a three engine ferry lately?

 

[surplus1]

At the same time, don't take my freedom to judge risk and skill away from me when it's my dime and my time.

Consider this -- your dime and your time end where my property line and life begin. You are free to exercise your own risk and skill as long as you expose no one and no one's property to the involuntary risk or reliance on that "judgement and skill."

 

[T-Gates]

Once apon a time there was no IFR.

Yes, and alot more people died!