Just heard F9 pilots are now screwed!

[F9 Buff]

WHAT's THE PROBLEM???????? If you can't see the problem with that then you guys are more fu**ed than I thought! This is bad. Your airline, management, and the games the play are no different than the other airlines out there. And you're not special to them. You give them this rope and they will hang you with it eventually.

I'm not a pilot for F9, I worked in several other areas of the company and from what I experienced from them they treated me and my work groups great compared to what I saw and heard from other airlines. Not sure how the pilot group has been treated in the past although from what I can gather it has been fair since the group in general has good things to say about the company.

In my opinion and from what I have seen, Frontier has been different than any other airline but now it seems the differences may be going away if in fact they are going to use Lynx as a way of screwing the pilots.

I think it's time for me to bail on the conversation and watch from the sidelines since I don't know enough about the situation...

Wishing the F9 pilots luck though!

 

[F9 Buff]

Hold the phone there D-Bo...you first need to know who you are talking to before you tell them they are screwed. From what i gather, F9 Buff is not a pilot with us, although he is an important team member. He has no experience flying for an airline, so he may not understand what exactly this kind of thing can do to us as pilots. So instead of jumping down his $hit, why don't you just put up your opinion with a grain of salt!

OK, so now i hope i have not offended you there Buff, and i really hope i am right in my assumtion of your position with us here. If not, i will go bury my head now...

Not offended at all as everything you said is true minus the fact that I am no longer with F9... I have been hanging out in the ultra lucrative flight instructing world since I left F9 a while back.

Have been hoping F9 would start a regional type thing for ever so I could get in like that. Now that it seems to be here... Well, what's that old saying about being careful what you wish for?

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

F9 union dummies

Hey All

Our dumb A@@ FAPA boys never put a scope clause in the contract. I gues you get what you pay for. If I was Jeff Potter I would buy and fly as many as I wanted and theirs not a damm thing the union can do. Remember they don't care about you or your families when it come to business it's all about making money. If any F9 piolot thinks this is great prepare your reumes for the fact hiring may end and the next step in the A319 or what ever elsa they want. The guys who have left in the last year look pretty smart right now. Put your apps in at UPS and Fed Ex and beat the rush.

 

[D-Bo]

Hold the phone there D-Bo...you first need to know who you are talking to before you tell them they are screwed. From what i gather, F9 Buff is not a pilot with us, although he is an important team member. He has no experience flying for an airline, so he may not understand what exactly this kind of thing can do to us as pilots. So instead of jumping down his $hit, why don't you just put up your opinion with a grain of salt!

OK, so now i hope i have not offended you there Buff, and i really hope i am right in my assumtion of your position with us here. If not, i will go bury my head now...

Ok. Well you're still fu**ed. Unless you all take that rope away. I see how concerned you are about the whole situation from reading your bad joke at the begining of this thread. Another thing, you, and a few others that post on all of the F9 threads, can give up that dream job crap now. You got the job and the interview is over. Get real and do what's best for you because your management surely will do what's best for them regardless of what's in your best interest. If you all don't figure that out for yourselves, it will become more than apparent sometime soon.

 

[ERJFO]

Why don't they (F9 pilots/union) scope all fly larger than 70 seat RJ's and 74 turboprops? The company isn't going to let them be paid any more than regional pay but one list or two lists with flowthru & flowback...

 

[F9 Driver]

Hey All

Our dumb A@@ FAPA boys never put a scope clause in the contract. I gues you get what you pay for. If I was Jeff Potter I would buy and fly as many as I wanted and theirs not a damm thing the union can do. Remember they don't care about you or your families when it come to business it's all about making money. If any F9 piolot thinks this is great prepare your reumes for the fact hiring may end and the next step in the A319 or what ever elsa they want. The guys who have left in the last year look pretty smart right now. Put your apps in at UPS and Fed Ex and beat the rush.

Do you have a copy of the contract? Are you actually a pilot at F9?:smash:

We have a scope clause and a successorship clause.

The Company - now Frontier Airlines Holding Company which ownes Frontier Airlines Inc.- is trying to say the whole CBA is only between FAPA and Frontier Airlines Inc. Not between FAPA and Frontier Airlines Holding.

The new compan, Lynx, is going to be owned by Frontier Holding so they contend they can do anything they want without violating our scope.

Get your facts straight while you update your resume. Try SUPPORTING your union if you actually work at Frontier.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

F9 screwed

hey dummy. I am a f9 pilot with a MBA so I think I know what I'm talking about. you are right it's between f9 and FAPA not the holding Inc. That is second year MBA stuff, but I quess the union reps that have no education would not know that. I would bet they may have a BS and have never bother to get highter education. Support my the union. I do but they must have some education to go agianst the top ten or better MBA guys and their bus. advisors. If you want to debate corporate law and business bring it on. Lets stop thinking just because the guy is voted in he is qualified to do the job. It dosen't work they way in the business world. One word results or your out. FAPA so far is 0 results in this case, but hell they are voted in so they must me smart. Good luck. Let spend our dues hiring educated people.

 

[F9 Driver]

hey dummy. I am a f9 pilot with a MBA so I think I know what I'm talking about. you are right it's between f9 and FAPA not the holding Inc. That is second year MBA stuff, but I quess the union reps that have no education would not know that. I would bet they may have a BS and have never bother to get highter education. Support my the union. I do but they must have some education to go agianst the top ten or better MBA guys and their bus. advisors. If you want to debate corporate law and business bring it on. Lets stop thinking just because the guy is voted in he is qualified to do the job. It dosen't work they way in the business world. One word results or your out. FAPA so far is 0 results in this case, but hell they are voted in so they must me smart. Good luck. Let spend our dues hiring educated people.

Sorry Troll. For whatever reason I thought you might actually just be one of our uninformed pilots.

Now I understand you're just a troll who posts here under another name.

Buh Bye:laugh:

 

[AnimalTale]

hey dummy. I am a f9 pilot with a MBA so I think I know what I'm talking about. you are right it's between f9 and FAPA not the holding Inc. That is second year MBA stuff, but I quess the union reps that have no education would not know that. I would bet they may have a BS and have never bother to get highter education. Support my the union. I do but they must have some education to go agianst the top ten or better MBA guys and their bus. advisors. If you want to debate corporate law and business bring it on. Lets stop thinking just because the guy is voted in he is qualified to do the job. It dosen't work they way in the business world. One word results or your out. FAPA so far is 0 results in this case, but hell they are voted in so they must me smart. Good luck. Let spend our dues hiring educated people.

I think you need to step up and help us fight instead of coward out and go somewhere else. We could use your "smarts". Pretty please

BTW, FAPA has done more for our pilot group than ALPA has done for me in the last six airlines I have been. Instead of complain, run away or cry wolf like the "dummy" that you are, why dont you be man enough to voice your opinions and suggestions in a constructive manner. Your MBA and College smarts should be a valuable source to us. Why act like such a child??
Shame on you!

Cya

 

[D-Bo]

I think you need to step up and help us fight instead of coward out and go somewhere else. We could use your "smarts". Pretty please

BTW, FAPA has done more for our pilot group than ALPA has done for me in the last six airlines I have been. Instead of complain, run away or cry wolf like the "dummy" that you are, why dont you be man enough to voice your opinions and suggestions in a constructive manner. Your MBA and College smarts should be a valuable source to us. Why act like such a child??
Shame on you!

Cya

There can't be too many folks at F9 that have flown C130s and the MD80, along with having an MBA. He's probably just F'n with you. But you guys will need a lot of help in all this.

 

[AnimalTale]

There can't be too many folks at F9 that have flown C130s and the MD80, along with having an MBA. He's probably just F'n with you. But you guys will need a lot of help in all this.

Im just f'n with him too!

We will be fine> Let the fat lady sing before we jump into conclusions.
FAPA might not be perfect, but they are aggresive, diligent and competent. After all, that is why we voted them in. THEY HAVE THE NUTS TO DO WHAT THEY DO.

CYA

 

[FlyingFarmer]

So, Animal Tale says.......

BTW, FAPA has done more for our pilot group than ALPA has done for me in the last six airlines I have been.

and

FAPA might not be perfect, but they are aggresive, diligent and competent. After all, that is why we voted them in. THEY HAVE THE NUTS TO DO WHAT THEY DO.


Hey Yo' Animal Tale.......


I'm not gonna let this thread stray too far off topic BUT......I think you need to think about what a GREAT JOB fapa HAS DONE protecting your seniority list. Obviously you're not too "QUICK" "AND(ers)" while I'm at it, let me just say that the move that's afoot to recall your MEC chair doesn't need much help. You guys need to keep the 400 flying IN HOUSE, like, and I can't believe I'm saying this, B6 did.

Regards!

 

[Big Duke Six]

Lowpayisgreat wrote:

hey dummy. I am a f9 pilot with a MBA so I think I know what I'm talking about. you are right it's between f9 and FAPA not the holding Inc. That is second year MBA stuff, but I quess the union reps that have no education would not know that. I would bet they may have a BS and have never bother to get highter education. Support my the union. I do but they must have some education to go agianst the top ten or better MBA guys and their bus. advisors. If you want to debate corporate law and business bring it on. Lets stop thinking just because the guy is voted in he is qualified to do the job. It dosen't work they way in the business world. One word results or your out. FAPA so far is 0 results in this case, but hell they are voted in so they must me smart. Good luck. Let spend our dues hiring educated people.

Dang dude, I don't know where you got your MBA from, but I hope you kept the receipt so you can get your $9.95 back.

Farmer, thanks for the support. It pains everyone to say it, but you're right, we need to keep it in-house.

 

[curtaindriver]

hey dummy. I am a f9 pilot with a MBA so I think I know what I'm talking about. you are right it's between f9 and FAPA not the holding Inc. That is second year MBA stuff, but I quess the union reps that have no education would not know that. I would bet they may have a BS and have never bother to get highter education. Support my the union. I do but they must have some education to go agianst the top ten or better MBA guys and their bus. advisors. If you want to debate corporate law and business bring it on. Lets stop thinking just because the guy is voted in he is qualified to do the job. It dosen't work they way in the business world. One word results or your out. FAPA so far is 0 results in this case, but hell they are voted in so they must me smart. Good luck. Let spend our dues hiring educated people.

Wow, I should be able to get an MBA based on this post. Anyway, it sounds like you guys don't have an "alter-ego" clause. Scope won't protect you if this is not in place. I have no dog in this fight, but I sure hope you guys fight hard to keep this flying in-house. It's a fight that's worth it, and possible to win. Good luck.

CD

 

[AnimalTale]

Hey Yo' Animal Tale.......


I'm not gonna let this thread stray too far off topic BUT......I think you need to think about what a GREAT JOB fapa HAS DONE protecting your seniority list. Obviously you're not too "QUICK" "AND(ers)" while I'm at it, let me just say that the move that's afoot to recall your MEC chair doesn't need much help. You guys need to keep the 400 flying IN HOUSE, like, and I can't believe I'm saying this, B6 did.

Regards!

Our MEC chairman is GREAT. I for one and the majority are UNIFIED with who we voted for. WHIPSAWING will not occur within the RANKS.

The issue YOU brought up with seniority is a bad situation, You are right. I also told you FAPA is not perfect. But I think the seniority issue that YOU brought up should be last priority. I think the DASH8 flying should be priority. We will keep the DASH flying in house. Mark my word!

I am not here to debate who has a better UNION. I am here to tell you that there are always complainers. My experience as an ALPA member has solidified my strong belief to remain UNIFIED with your voted officials. I have yet seen anything that requires any recall. In fact, Our Unions GOOD outweight their BAD.

Its ALPO that you have to worry about. They are a big greedy corporation that only care about lining their own pockets.

Cya

Ps. B6 did a great job. My buddy says there is a movement to get a union in. They are sick of it. I never like to bring out "dirt" on other airlines, but you sure have a hard on with bringing out F9 issues. If you want to play dirty, I can play too!

 

[F9 Driver]

Wow, I should be able to get an MBA based on this post. Anyway, it sounds like you guys don't have an "alter-ego" clause. Scope won't protect you if this is not in place. I have no dog in this fight, but I sure hope you guys fight hard to keep this flying in-house. It's a fight that's worth it, and possible to win. Good luck.

CD

There is an alter-ego clause within our scope clause. I guess the company wants to see if it will hold up in court.

Flying Farmer - What MEC and what recall movement? You lost me on this one.

 

[AnimalTale]

There is an alter-ego clause within our scope clause. I guess the company wants to see if it will hold up in court.

Flying Farmer - What MEC and what recall movement? You lost me on this one.

He thinks we should recall our Union Head! I have never seen, in my life, a pilot that works for one company, have so much interest and knowledge for another company. I am wondering if FARMER worked for F9.

Cya

 

[Trogdor]

So is there a clause in the F9 pilot contract that limits the aircraft on property to more than a certain number of seats, say 114 like the A318? I would assume so, otherwise management would just bring the Q400 on line as the new-hire aircraft.

 

[F9 Driver]

Simpler yet.

All flying is to be done by pilots on the seniority list.

But it takes about a page to say that.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

you have to be kidden me

Guys

1. What benefit would mang. get by having everyone on one list, none
2. They don't care about your job, 401K or putting food on the table for your kids. They are in the business of running a airline and making the most for the shareholder and thus profits for themselves. Business school 101 is "if the board in not happy your on the street). Potter and the boys don't care its all bout stock options. Take a look at the 102K filing for the fiscal and see how many each top person owns. They have alot more at stack then you do when it comes to money.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Heres some more

1. Listen to the web cast that can be found on this thread and take note when several persons from investment firms ask questions. Here's one for you. Qt: " have you talked to your pilots about this" Resp: "Yes and everylabor group is happy with the Q400 purchase." Qt: "What about the scope for the pilot group" Resp: " thier is no scope"
2. If you don't believe me listen to the broadcast it's public and can be found on page 3 or 4 by now.
3. The rumor is FAPA is sueing. Well good luck. They dropped the ball becasue the loose scope lang. we have is for F9 and does not pertain to the holding company.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Here's even more for YA

1. Remember when Hitler was in the bunker and the ruskies were several miles and away and he said everything is fine we will be saved by so and so's army that didn't exist. Well 2006. Potter "we are not being hurt by SWA and are beating them at their own game" Now look at the power point presentation that was release from our CFO and take note of each markets break down. You can find this on the F9 web site under finacials. Please note that in every market that SWA has entered we posted a reduction in profitable revenue in all those routes. Now don't get confused with the stats they are talking about in bold which is increase in total revenue which was way up. Look at profitible revenue increase and note negative numbers for each route. IE on each route that SWA enters we start to loose money. Someone, some were is not being honest. IF you don't believe me find a friend with a background in corporate finace and have him take note or just look at the forcast from Wal-street and not price prediction do not move for the stock, which means confidence is not high. Also note 5 months ago 6 of the 9 house on Wal-street change our stock from buy to hold. The next move in the negative direction would be from hold to sell.

 

[F9 Driver]

MBA? And I thought I couldn't spell

Go away please you're embarassing yourself.

 

[SuperLoser121]

Is it true that what happens at ALPA has no affect on FAPA? I mean, if a court has found a certain way at an ALPA carrier, does it mean the same thing at a non-alpa carrier? I'm not trying to piss anybody off but hasn't this suing battle already been lost at other airlines ?

 

[yaks]

Has anyone bothered to read the successorship clause? That's the one that will
screw us.

 

[StaySeated]

G. SUCCESSORSHIP

This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor or assign of the Company unless and until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended. For the purposes of this Paragraph, a successor or assign shall be defined as an entity (other than an air carrier or an entity which owns, is owned, or is controlled by an air carrier) which acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company through a single transaction or multi-step related transactions.

I'm sorry, I don't read anything in this language that affects the current issue. I agree that it is weak language due to the fact that it rules out the only thing that would aquire assets, i.e. another airline.

The real problem is the fact that the company (Frontier Airlines) is stating that all of the scope language applies to them, not the enitity that purchased the -8's and is starting Lynx (Frontier Holdings).

Our interpretation of this is really a moot point, as the company (Frontier Airlines) has already started the process and our union is taking the necessary actions.

I have said it before, scope language is totally useless. If you have great scope language, you sold your soul to get it and when push comes to shove you will still get screwed. For every labor attorney that "knows scope" there are ten more attorneys working with managment figuring out way to wipe their ass with section two.

Hopefully this will not go down the path of the worst case scenario, but either way my optimism has taken a huge hit. The people on the line are still wonderful, but I didn't expect this sh1t sandwich to be served here.

 

[scrub]

scope clause, soap clause, they're not worth the toilet paper they're written on.

 

[igneousy2]

Just a few comments as some of you seem to have some serious misconceptions.

1. Scope - There is a reason that it is the first section of every pilot contract. A lot of pilots think that scope merely limits how many seats regionals can have but it is so much more basic than that. Without a scope section there would be no rest of the contract because it would not matter.

2. "It doesn't apply to the holding company" - Do you think that AMR restricts Eagle's growth because it is being nice? The relationship between AMR/AA/and Eagle is similar. LOWPAYISGREAT - It's great that you have an MBA but if you had a JD you would know that when courts/arbitrators look at a contract a lot of attention is placed on what the intent of the parties were when they originally made the agreement. I think there is a good chance that a judge/arbitrator would look at the situation here and rule that the parent company took on the obligation of following the pilots' CBA when they obtained the equity in Frontier Airlines. Further, nobody is saying they can't start a new airline, all the pilots are/will be asking is that the pilots flying the airplanes come from the current F9 seniority list and that their employment come under the F9 CBA. Don't think this is possible? Ask Mesa, they have numerous airlines flying under one contract. Not saying that F9 pilots are GOING to win but noone can say with certaintity that they are going to lose either. That is why deals are made.

3. "ALPA is bad" - I do not agree with a lot of the things that ALPA has/is doing to pilots...especially regional pilots on a national level. However, what most pilots don't realize is that ALPA is not organized like most unions, they are not the teamsters. For better or worse, Power at ALPA rests with the MEC at each of the airlines. For 99% of the pilot bitches that I hear about at the various ALPA carriers, the pilots need look no further than their elected MEC officers. ALPA national is strictly support staff. The MEC with the advice of "experts" from national negotiate their own CBA's and LOAs, decide what they want to grieve, decide when to resort to self-help. Statistically less than 30% of eligible pilots even bother to vote for their MEC officers. More pilots have been screwed by other pilots than by the worse CEO you can think of. Ask not what your union can do for you...

Later

 

[yaks]

"For the purposes of this Paragraph, a successor or assign shall be defined as an entity (other than an air carrier or an entity which owns, is owned, or is controlled by an air carrier)"

The new aircraft are supposed to be flown by a seperate carrier under a seperate operating certificate. Therefore successorship as defined in the contract would not apply if the new carrier acquired Frontier Airlines Inc.