Just heard F9 pilots are now screwed!

[HighSpeedClimb]

Management has the balls, small of course, to pull this crap off over and over again. Frontier needs to make their stand and take one for the entire pilot group by only allowing F6 pilots to fly these Q-400's. If management says no, then begin a strike vote to show them this will not fly.

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

Thats how they all should be. One list. Start at the bottom and go up. That way when you have put in years and years and move up to higher pay and bigger planes if the shiat hits the fan its not on the streets you go. Its easier for someone at the bottom to start over than someone who has been doing this for years and has alot riding on this industry. JMHO

Nice avatar!! I'm putting back up my old one that the moderators made me take off, it it was much less revealing.

 

[F9 Driver]

Don't worry about us not putting up a fight.

The company stepped on it HARD with this one, and the union leadership won't let it go by.

The new Frontier Airlines Holding Co. is who is doing this additional buying/flying, and management seems to think they have gotten around our scope provisions.

I think this is going to be a bit more painfull than they expected.

Stay tuned, and thanks for your support!

 

[Larcifer]

WOW! Let the dust settle in before you wish demise on your fellow airline pilots. Seems like you are happy at the thought that we MIGHT get "screwed". Attitude like yours is why OUR airline industry is plummetting (SP) downward, FAST.

Who are you to play armchair quarterback? Although you "MIGHT" have some valid points, you could be a little more diplomatic in your approach to inform your fellow readers.

Good luck,

Cya

You've have got to be kidding me. I've never heard as much airline bashing in my life as I've heard at Frontier. I'd be a rich man if I had a quarter for every comment I've heard about UAL not to mention Major airlines in general. We have potenial to get a royal ass f***n out of this little alter ego BS. I hope to hell that FAPA fights to get these crews on our senority lists. I'm sure the company will be willing to "negotiate" some sort of deal. We had better stand strong or we'll be looking for jobs again. I've got the shirt in a large and I don't need an XXL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[StaySeated]

jesus larcifer you are one intense individual.

I think the recent announcement is more of a direct attack on horizon than frontier. Don't take this the wrong way, I am not pissing on the horizon guys. I just believe that this is a go-jet scam more than a whip saw on frontier. Frontier has a 12 year deal with horizon that is pretty fat compared to other fee for departure agreements. I don't think the q400 is a coincidence. "lynx" or whatever they call it will have horizon guys crawling over themselves to fly in the left seat. Again, I am not saying anything bad about horizon, this route has been flown before with success, so why not try it again.

I am just bummed that it is happening here, but business is business, especially in this f'd up business.

 

[AnimalTale]

I've never heard as much airline bashing in my life as I've heard at Frontier. I'd be a rich man if I had a quarter for every comment I've heard about UAL not to mention Major airlines in general!

I dont hear many F9 pilots bashing other airlines, what I do see is some pilots bad mouth and discredit other pilot groups and airlines. Is it out of jealousy? Competition? or cold hearted ness?

We should all support each other. After all, the past repeats itself. Where else have we seen alter-ego companies and whipsawing? F9 mngmt is only looking at its peers for this lesson on whipsawing (NWA, UAL, JETBLU, ALASKA, DELTA etc..)

I could be very wrong but I think F9 mngmt WILL keep the aircraft on property with ONE seniority list. Call it a CREATIVE "B" SCALE. I think F9 mngmt is trying to establish "regional" pay rates for the Q400.

We will wait and CEE!

Cya

 

[crashpad]

I agree with AnimalTale and, yes we'll have to wait and see.
Connecting to the ski resorts is important. This decision is paramount to Frontiers' future success.
What really seperates Frontier from ALL others, is it's employee relations. All here would agree, it is the finest airline to serve because we have enjoyed the benefits of flying for a company that puts its product on par with profitibility. This airline is a success for many reasons, and for which every employee can take some credit. I don't expect to see that change simply because we're expanding. A business which expands in this industry, is going to solidify it's future. We're doing that.

Frontier Orders 10 Bombardier Turboprops
Wednesday September 6, 5:23 pm ET
By Sandy Shore, AP Business Writer
Frontier Airlines Orders 10 Turboprop Airplanes From Bombardier for Use in Regional Flights
DENVER (AP) -- Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc. unveiled plans Wednesday to buy 10 Bombardier Inc. turboprop planes for $257 million to use in a new service targeted at mid-sized cities in the Rockies.

The operation will start next year, serving up to 18 destinations and creating as many as 400 jobs, Frontier Chief Executive Officer Jeff Potter said.
Although Potter declined to specify cities under consideration, he said they would be within a 650 to 700 mile-circle around metropolitan Denver, including Colorado resort destinations.
The expanded service could give Frontier a competitive edge over Southwest Airlines and others that do not have smaller jets or planes necessary to serve those cities, said Mike Boyd, an aviation analyst with The Boyd Group.
He called the decision a good move for Frontier, particularly given the competition it faces from Dallas-based Southwest.
"This means it can access revenue streams that Southwest can't," Boyd said. "They can access markets like Durango, Grand Junction, Aspen or Jackson Hole (Wyo.)."
Based in Denver, Frontier is a low-cost carrier that operates a hub at Denver International Airport serving 55 destinations in the United States, Mexico and Canada.
Under terms of the agreement with Montreal-based Bombardier, Frontier will take delivery of the 74-seat Q400 aircraft between May and December of next year and has an option to purchase an additional 10 planes beginning in May 2008.
Each aircraft will cost about $26 million, according to a Frontier filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. In a statement, Bombardier valued the contract at $256.8 million which would increase to $520.3 million if the additional 10 aircraft are ordered.
A wholly owned subsidiary will be created to operate the new service to give Frontier more control and improve cost efficiencies, Potter said. The fleet will carry the Frontier brand name and trademark animals on each aircraft's tail.
Frontier also is looking at changes for its regional jet aircraft service by either supplementing or replacing its existing fleet of nine CRJ-700 aircraft. That service currently is operated by Horizon Air under the banner Frontier JetExpress, and Potter said the two companies are in discussions about the existing 12-year agreement which is permitted under its terms. Frontier plans to issue a request for proposals from Horizon and others about the regional jet operation within the next month.

 

[Captain Overs]

I'd be a little concerned about an airline that made money (I know it wasn't much) and is trying to reduce the wages of first year pilots. Can't wait to see what's around the corner.

 

[regionaltard]

Don't worry about us not putting up a fight.

The company stepped on it HARD with this one, and the union leadership won't let it go by.

The new Frontier Airlines Holding Co. is who is doing this additional buying/flying, and management seems to think they have gotten around our scope provisions.

I think this is going to be a bit more painfull than they expected.

Stay tuned, and thanks for your support!

You don't think that this might have something to do with the fact that Horizon is currently negotiating a contract, do you?

 

[F9 Driver]

Our agreement with Horizon allows for both parties to re-evaluate the contract at three and six years. Horizon has hit every performance bonus set by the contract and looks expensive compared to other RJ operators.

As the press release shows we are looking for more RJs as well as the Q400. Maybe Horizon will end up running the show for us after all. I have no idea.

 

[USMC319]

I think its way too early to say the F9 pilots are screwed. We haven't even heard any of the details yet. The pilots for this new operation could be new-hires on the Frontier seniority list or they could be pilots working for the successful RFP award (Horizon???). If, however, thepilots are non-union new-hires, then I would agree that the F9 pilots would be officially screwed. The announcement is mostly positive for Frontier's long term survivability and essential for the company's growth plan. I hope the company will do the right thing in order to preserve the excellent working relationship they enjoy now with the pilots as well as preservation of the outstanding corporate culture that was developed by this same group.

 

[crashpad]

I'd be a little concerned about an airline that made money (I know it wasn't much) and is trying to reduce the wages of first year pilots. Can't wait to see what's around the corner.

You'd be in support of it, because the first year FO pay is the highest in the industry and effects the entire companys' bottom line. You'd think about profit sharing and let the FOs' pay their dues, just like you did.
What would concern me is if a company canned all the ground personelle and offered them jobs at their feeder airline for half the pay.

You don't have to wait and see what's around the corner:
Expansion....
More Customers....
More Growth....
Talking Animals everywhere....
People making a choice to have a great experience flying....
Applicants moving F9 to the top of their 'Dream Job' list....

 

[Big Duke Six]

I agree it's to early to know. But in the meantime I WILL be calling FAPA to voice my concerns.

I missed the meeting last night. Any insights from there? What was the tone regarding the discussions of the announcement?

 

[Sioux115]

jesus larcifer you are one intense individual.

I think the recent announcement is more of a direct attack on horizon than frontier. Don't take this the wrong way, I am not pissing on the horizon guys. I just believe that this is a go-jet scam more than a whip saw on frontier. Frontier has a 12 year deal with horizon that is pretty fat compared to other fee for departure agreements. I don't think the q400 is a coincidence. "lynx" or whatever they call it will have horizon guys crawling over themselves to fly in the left seat. Again, I am not saying anything bad about horizon, this route has been flown before with success, so why not try it again.

I am just bummed that it is happening here, but business is business, especially in this f'd up business.

I completely agree, at least for now. I think Frontier is trying to nudge Horizon and renegotiate the contract because when I was flying for JetExpress they seemed really happy with our performance. I don't know how bad Horizon wants the contract though, we can sure use those 9 airplanes in our native system. But Horizon could probably drop the performance bonus to start and just be a fee per departure which should save some costs. Anyways, good luck Frontier and keep those new Dash pilots on your seniority list.

 

[starchkr]

WOW!!...I got hammered for a joke that only those of us working here in the company would understand, by a guy who just has a friend here. No problem, i don't take it personal, nor do i hold a grudge.

I do however think that me sitting here on my computer and b1tching about the way things should be done is pretty sad. Therefore i will not bring any negative feelings or anything of the such into these posts...I will however do what i can with FAPA and management here in the company by actually going to them instead of putting crap up here. Makes a heck of a lot more sense to me...plus i am sure that i am not alone in this...most of us i am sure will go straight to the people who make these decisions and voice our opinions. It's funny that it has taken three pages to repeat the same thing over and over, however i am sure that most of us had these same ideas long before the first post was even made right after the announcement came out. We are not morons here fella's, we know what can happen here, and i am sure that most of us want to do everything we can to minimize the backlash on us...but i don't think talking about it here will accomplish those goals.

 

[ERJFO]

Would most guys be agianst a wholly owned regional if the pilots were under FAPA and there was something like and equal numbers flow-thru/flow-back provision?

 

[Bubba Dog]

http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=22363

F9 = Frontier
B6 = JetBlue

Thanks TWA Dude. I feel like I am in the 21st century again.

 

[mrnolmts]

...Horizon has hit every performance bonus set by the contract and looks expensive compared to other RJ operators...

This might be the key. The F9/QX contract came about in 2003, two years after 9/11, at a time when the majors were struggling big time. Still, F9 was willing to pay for quality. Maybe the non-compete clauses at other providers prevented F9 from entering agreements with them, and QX was the only "viable" option? I don't know. Maybe QX has turned out to be a more reliable provider than they expected? I don't know what the performance bonuses are, but if they are significant, I can definitely see why F9 would want to change the contract, or start up their own regional...
Also, putting the pilots under one list is definitely the way to go. Regarding Q400 rates, remember that Frontier has done quite well even with "expensive" Horizon pilots flying for them. And those guys are making more than the QX Q400 pilots, the Q400 is less expensive to operate, and the Q400 carries 4+ more people!! Bottom line: Don't settle for less than the current QX Q400 rates!!!

 

[eaglefly]

The APA said back in the '90's..."we dont want that flying"....guess where it went..to Eagle Pukes....no one ever learns

Spoken like a true former "Eaglepuke".

You were not liked much when you were in ORD and I see nothing has changed.

 

[F9 Buff]

So what is the problem with Lynx (the new F9 startup) being seperate from the F9 side? Can't they just add in the contract that the Lynx side can only fly the Q400s thus preventing F9 from ever using Lynx as a way to try and lower the F9 pilots pay?

From the employee website it was saying that the 300-400 new employees will be paid wages on par with other regionals. Does this lead anyone else to believe that they will hire their own pilots rather than try and get pilots from another regional (probably Horizon) to crew the planes?

 

[OpenClimb]

Hi F9 Buff:

We've chatted before re: your excellent photography. I admire your work! I know you're a nice guy and that your post isn't flame bait so I'll try to share a pilot's perspective:

I think the majority of the pilot group won't have a problem with the concept of an "in-house" feeder airline. Logic would suggest that Horizon is making money based on their relationship with Frontier. If we can operate the feeder service in-house, we have the potential of capturing the revenue that Horizon is receiving above and beyond their cost of providing the service. Makes perfect sense. Who could complain?...

The problem is that our contract says that Frontier Airlines flying will be done by Frontier Airlines pilots. There are limited exceptions for emergencies, new fleets, etc., but that's the basic concept. Last year, Frontier formed Frontier Holdings. Frontier Airlines is now owned by Frontier Holdings.

It is the position of management [the generic term applies because the management of Holdings and Airlines is one and the same] that the pilot contract applies to Airlines, but not to Holdings. So... Holdings can start as many new airlines as it wants. These new companies can hire new pilots who will be paid less than existing Frontier Airlines pilots.

[An aside... I wonder if I legally changed my middle name if I would be relieved of my all-too-burdensome monthly house payments... hmm]

Right now, it's Q400's. Next year it could be the A-320's. Heck, it could be the A-318's we already have. Jeff Potter, at yesterday's Pilot Town Hall Meeting, stated publicly that he saw no reason this couldn't happen. Holdings would be well within their legal rights to do that very thing. As you might imagine, this statement and the thinly-veiled threat isn't sitting well with the pilot group.

The other little undercurrent in this whole fiasco is that we're in the middle of negotiations. The Railway Labor Act [which applies to pilots--even though it says Railway--long story...] has this concept called "Status Quo." The concept is that the pilot group AND MANAGEMENT can't do things or not do things any differently than they've done in the past. They must maintain the current and historical STATUS QUO.

This (among other provisions of the law) is one of the reasons pilots can't suddenly start calling in sick or ceasing to pick up overtime. This is also why the Company can't start a new airline and use non-union, non-Frontier pilots. The intent of the Status Quo provision is to keep either side from putting the screws to the other side and extorting more favorable terms in a new contract.

Provisions for an in-house feeder operation have been discussed at great length in contract negotiations. There are many details to consider with such an operation. It's not just as simple as saying the new company can only operate Q400's--besides, the Company already says it's considering RJ's.

Unions would commonly require assurances that existing pilots wouldn't be furloughed due to the expansion of feeder flying. Mainline Unions would also commonly ask for some sort of agreement to allow mainine pilots an opportunity to bid for captain positions at the feeder. It would also be common to limit growth of the feeder at some ratio of X number of feeder aircraft for every X number of mainline aircraft. Etc. etc.

The short story is that the Company wasn't getting its way so they made an executive decision that they didn't need the Union's permission or agreement... and went ahead and announced all their big plans.

Over the past 16+ months of contract negotiations, I return to the same question: Is Frontier management this dumb? Or do they think the pilot group is this dumb? I could be all wet, but I'm betting the Union will obtain a Federal Court injunction against Frontier in all its forms from starting this new alter-ego carrier without first reaching an agreement with the existing pilot group through the good-faith negotiation practices as outlined in the Railway Labor Act.

And that's why everybody's all torqued.

 

[Captain Overs]

You'd be in support of it, because the first year FO pay is the highest in the industry and effects the entire companys' bottom line. You'd think about profit sharing and let the FOs' pay their dues, just like you did.
What would concern me is if a company canned all the ground personelle and offered them jobs at their feeder airline for half the pay.

You don't have to wait and see what's around the corner:
Expansion....
More Customers....
More Growth....
Talking Animals everywhere....
People making a choice to have a great experience flying....
Applicants moving F9 to the top of their 'Dream Job' list....

FO's pay their dues? Most did to get the job. You're so narrow minded. It's people with vision like yours who have cause the industry to plummet.

 

[igneousy2]

...I don't think this has to be all doom and gloom like you are making it out to be. A lot of airlines existed peacefully with their wholly owned regional subsidies...AA and Eagle...

I don't know what planet you've been on...and I don't know about the other family of airlines on your list...but I can tell you from first hand experience that there is ZERO love of AA pilots by Eagle pilots and vice-versa. Jumpseat wars, radio wars, EXISTED PEACEFULLY!!! are you friggin kidding me!!!Tell me you were joking!!! hahahahahaah!

Radio exchange on DFW ground I heard while I was based there.

DFW Ground: AA XXX follow your company SAAB passing off your right for the KEG route

AA XXX: My company doesn't fly SAABS!

DFW Ground: yeah they do, they're passing off your right...now follow them or hold your position!

hilarious!!!

Later

 

[JP4user]

Once this horse gets out of the barn.......

Gentleman (and ladies) you are making a grave mistake to think any type of relief from scope will be beneficial.

 

[F9 Buff]

Hi F9 Buff:

We've chatted before re: your excellent photography. I admire your work! I know you're a nice guy and that your post isn't flame bait so I'll try to share a pilot's perspective:

Thanks, definetly not trying to ruffle any feathers here...

Part of me wonders if Mesa didn't set the standards so low then Horizon wouldn't have been able to get all the bonuses for exceeding performance expectations and this may never have come up.

I have been hoping for Frontier to get Q400s and do the local hops since I started at F9 and now it seems to be happening but it looks like there will be a very bitter pill to swallow along with it.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Who is F9 and B6?

How do you break this crazy code?

Been in the industry since 89 and this is all Greek to me.

Frontier and JetBlue.

http://www.airlinecodes.co.uk/



.

 

[D-Bo]

You'd be in support of it, because the first year FO pay is the highest in the industry and effects the entire companys' bottom line. You'd think about profit sharing and let the FOs' pay their dues, just like you did.
What would concern me is if a company canned all the ground personelle and offered them jobs at their feeder airline for half the pay.

You don't have to wait and see what's around the corner:
Expansion....
More Customers....
More Growth....
Talking Animals everywhere....
People making a choice to have a great experience flying....
Applicants moving F9 to the top of their 'Dream Job' list....

You are so gullible. Unfortunately, the only way for you to see things as they really are, is to get pissed on some more.

 

[D-Bo]

So what is the problem with Lynx (the new F9 startup) being seperate from the F9 side? Can't they just add in the contract that the Lynx side can only fly the Q400s thus preventing F9 from ever using Lynx as a way to try and lower the F9 pilots pay?

From the employee website it was saying that the 300-400 new employees will be paid wages on par with other regionals. Does this lead anyone else to believe that they will hire their own pilots rather than try and get pilots from another regional (probably Horizon) to crew the planes?

WHAT's THE PROBLEM???????? If you can't see the problem with that then you guys are more fu**ed than I thought! This is bad. Your airline, management, and the games the play are no different than the other airlines out there. And you're not special to them. You give them this rope and they will hang you with it eventually.

 

[maru657]

It would be nice if airline pilot groups maintained one seniority list, but that battle was lost a long time ago. It probably would have required a national seniority list. As for some Frontier pilots complaints about the company not notifying them and getting an agreement first, that fight was lost a long time ago too. A holding company does not require permission for any other subsidiary's actions. Frontier is no longer the parent company, Frontier Holdings is. Frontier's survival and growth probably depends on the ability to fight just as dirty as it's competitors and that company's' profile is definitely a target now.

 

[starchkr]

Hold the phone there D-Bo...you first need to know who you are talking to before you tell them they are screwed. From what i gather, F9 Buff is not a pilot with us, although he is an important team member. He has no experience flying for an airline, so he may not understand what exactly this kind of thing can do to us as pilots. So instead of jumping down his $hit, why don't you just put up your opinion with a grain of salt!

OK, so now i hope i have not offended you there Buff, and i really hope i am right in my assumtion of your position with us here. If not, i will go bury my head now...